The Winkie's explained

Exclusively reserved for discussion regarding David Lynch's 'Mulholland Dr.'
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Coffee Cup
 
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Re: The Winkie's explained

Postby Coffee Cup » 11 Jun 2015

Xav wrote:Bravo Herb ! I think you did a magnificent job. Just checked some figures myself on my Mac and VLC to run the movie (avi-file, frame-rate = 23.976024).

Start of the movie read 21, end of the movie 8808. This makes the runtime 8787 seconds.
The Winkie's scene starts at 720 and ends at 1016, making it last 296 seconds. Reality = going downstairs , at 956 and Death/wall at 1000.
This results into R = 79.9% and D = 94.6 % in the Winkie's scene.
And R = 7022, which is 79.7% and D = 8303, which is 94.3 % in the movie itself.

Pretty good, don't you think !?

Thanks and well done, Herb.


Well done? You come up with 8787 and the OP comes up with 8433. That's a difference of nearly 6 minutes of movie time.

When I press play, the counter on my DVD player starts. At the very end of the movie after all the closing credits have finished, a "Mulholland Drive" logo is the last thing shown on the screen.

At that spot, the counter says 02:26:45.

That equals 8805 seconds. Keep in mind, that's not from the Studio Canal logo; it includes EVERYTHING: 22 seconds of time for the Universal Studios clip, the Studio Canal logo, and all closing credits to the very end (Well past the end of the movie itself). So how is it that you come up with 8808 if you're starting from the Studio Canal logo??

The stairs show up at 3 minutes and 56 seconds into the winkies scene (236 seconds). This is equal to spot 01:53:00 in the movie (236x28.73 = 6780 seconds, which equals 113 minutes which is 1 hour and 53 minutes into the movie).

At 1 hour and 53 minutes into the movie, Betty and Diane are in the courtyard at Havenhurst coming home from Silencio. The cowboy doesn't show up for another 3 minutes and 40 seconds later to say, "Hey pretty girl. Time to wake up."

These things just aren't lining up the way you guys say they are.

Maybe it would be better if you guys used the stock suggested time for the movie length which is 2 hours 27 minutes. If you do that, the cowboy shows up right on time in line with the stairs.

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Siku
 
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Re: The Winkie's explained

Postby Siku » 11 Jun 2015

So the question is, how much accuracy do you need?

You'll agree that the proportions of dream, reality and death are broadly the same?

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Re: The Winkie's explained

Postby ctyankee » 11 Jun 2015

Herb wrote:
ctyankee wrote:And now let's see what's happen to Diane.
In the first scene (jitterbug), we see the old couple and Betty.
Yes, Betty, as mentionned by the cast in order of appearance.
Image


Betty, indeed. Also, very late in the Jitterbug Contest/Dance, someone calls out her name, "Betty."

Herb wrote:
We know that Betty is Diane's name in her dreams.
So let's think of the first clue that DL gives to us : "Pay particular attention to the beginning of the film: At least two clues are revealed before the credits"
The first clue is that we are seeing a dream, Diane's first dream.
As she sees the old couple, Diane wakes up briefly, we hear the sound of her hard breathing, she's afraid of something (second clue).
Then she's falling into the pillow and begins a new dream (the second one).
In this second dream, she also sees the old couple (airport scene).
And later, just before dying, she's scared by seeing a last time the old couple.

So there's a real connection between the Winkie's and the whole movie.
Dan is Diane's fractal version and the bum is the old couple's fractal version.


1. It is not hard breathing nor do I remember anyone ever suggesting it was hard breathing or scared breathing. Additionally, if you turn the captions on it simply reads "breathing" or "breathing continued." Additionally, there are many, many ideas as to David Lynch's first clues, her breathing in any form is a new one. That doesn't mean it should be dismissed, it means that putting any substance on the idea without more ... a lot more ... has limited merit.

2. Everything bolded has nothing to do with the Winkie's scenes (such as the old couple), so how does that create a "real connection" with Winkies? We all fall in love with our theories and ideas but upon reflection, are they really on sold ground? Seeing both the Bum and the old couple at the end of the film ... and they are fractal versions of each other?

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Re: The Winkie's explained

Postby Coffee Cup » 11 Jun 2015

Siku wrote:So the question is, how much accuracy do you need?

You'll agree that the proportions of dream, reality and death are broadly the same?


6 minutes of movie time is equal to nearly 10 seconds of Winkies time. So, accuracy is important.

The OP's post is incorrect where he gives the photo showing that the walls behind Winkies line up together. No matter how you slice it, when the wall shows up behind Winkies, Diane is at Adams dinner party.

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Re: The Winkie's explained

Postby Siku » 11 Jun 2015

I agree ctyankee, but you missed something that Herb observed: Dan says it’s the second dream he’s had and, if we take the jitterbug sequence to be a dream (based on the mise en scene and the credits listing Betty not Diane), then the bulk of the movie, Diane’s dream, is Diane’s second dream.

Dan dreamed about the bum, Diane dreamed about jitterbug dancers and old folks and looking into a bright light. It’s reaching a little if you ask me to say their the same and equivalent or ‘fractal'. Betty in that screen cap doesn’t look, "scared like I can’t tell you” as Dan is during his dream so why wold we assume they’re representations of the same thing?

The hard breathing thing has been spoken about before - it was suggested that Diane took a hit from a bong, therefore is a drug addict. x|

Coffee Cup, I agree, the wall (or was it stairs) coinciding with, "time to wake up pretty girl”, probably isn’t true. But again, how close does it need to be? To me it’s more of a structural thing than an exact numerology. The latter I think would be accidental anyway for reasons I outlined above. I’ll check the numbers on my version and see what I get.

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Re: The Winkie's explained

Postby Coffee Cup » 12 Jun 2015

Siku wrote:I agree ctyankee, but you missed something that Herb observed: Dan says it’s the second dream he’s had and, if we take the jitterbug sequence to be a dream (based on the mise en scene and the credits listing Betty not Diane), then the bulk of the movie, Diane’s dream, is Diane’s second dream.

Dan dreamed about the bum, Diane dreamed about jitterbug dancers and old folks and looking into a bright light. It’s reaching a little if you ask me to say their the same and equivalent or ‘fractal'. Betty in that screen cap doesn’t look, "scared like I can’t tell you” as Dan is during his dream so why wold we assume they’re representations of the same thing?

The hard breathing thing has been spoken about before - it was suggested that Diane took a hit from a bong, therefore is a drug addict. x|

Coffee Cup, I agree, the wall (or was it stairs) coinciding with, "time to wake up pretty girl”, probably isn’t true. But again, how close does it need to be? To me it’s more of a structural thing than an exact numerology. The latter I think would be accidental anyway for reasons I outlined above. I’ll check the numbers on my version and see what I get.


It should say on the back of your DVD that the movie is 2 hours 27 minutes. The actual length might vary for some reason.

What I love about the Winkies scene is how Lynch delivers the goods. Dan describes a dream he's had twice. Both dreams take place in Winkies and the only difference between the dream and reality is the light because it's not day or night....it's kind of half night. He says he's scared "Like I can't tell ya" because there's a man behind Winkies who's "Doing it". He can see his face through the wall and hopes he will never see that face outside of a dream.

Herb recreates the dream and walks Dan through it to help him get rid of his awful feeling. Herb intends to show Dan that the man is not there and there's no reason to be scared. He takes Dan behind Winkies to prove to him that it's just a dream. But low and behold, BOOM, the man IS there and now the dream has become reality. Herb makes Dan's dream come true. But mentally, this is more than Dan can handle because it causes his death.

When I first saw the movie, I expected no one to be there because it's just a dream. And Lynch easily could have done that. Herb could have shown Dan that nobody is there. But shockingly, the man appears and we think to ourselves "Huh? I thought the man was in a dream. How could he be here now if it was a dream?"

Lynch builds up the moment of anticipation so well as they walk behind Winkies. It's like Lynch wants you to be scared also, but knows that in your mind you think it's a dream and that certainly nobody is there. And then....POW! Your assumptions are shattered as Lynch blows your mind. I love that delivery. Lynch did not disappoint.

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Re: The Winkie's explained

Postby ctyankee » 15 Jun 2015

Siku wrote:I agree ctyankee, but you missed something that Herb observed: Dan says it’s the second dream he’s had and, if we take the jitterbug sequence to be a dream (based on the mise en scene and the credits listing Betty not Diane), then the bulk of the movie, Diane’s dream, is Diane’s second dream.

Dan dreamed about the bum, Diane dreamed about jitterbug dancers and old folks and looking into a bright light. It’s reaching a little if you ask me to say their the same and equivalent or ‘fractal'. Betty in that screen cap doesn’t look, "scared like I can’t tell you” as Dan is during his dream so why wold we assume they’re representations of the same thing?


The Jitterbug scene as either a dream or a fantasy is well established going back to at least 2002 discussions. That's nothing new. The kernel of Herb's idea that is different, in my view is this:

Herb wrote:By deciphering the Winkie’s scene we see that it includes a part of dream, a part of reality and a part of death. We also know that this scene is an exact and contracted version of the movie (fractal structure). So the movie also includes a part of dream, a part of reality and a part of death in the same proportions. The classical theory is no longer a theory, this is a proven fact.


Thus Herb proposes that fractal is both structure along with characters. With Dan being a fractal version of Diane and similarly the Old Couple/Bum. I raised the issue of the Old Couple having no connection with Winkies at all.

To my view, a far better reading of Dan, the bum and the Old Couple is that of Lynch's fascination with a Hollywood Babylon version of The Wizard of Oz ... with characters appearing near the beginning and the end and during the film (with different names). The parallel is not at the core of the film, merely a slant on an idea. That said, Dan makes for a cowardly Lion ... the bum makes for a Witch and Aunt and Uncle become ... the Aunt and Uncle with a Twilight Zone spin.

Still, Herb offers up some neat ideas ... which is far better than the vast majority of posts by a long shot.

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Re: The Winkie's explained

Postby Siku » 18 Jun 2015

ctyankee wrote:better than the vast majority of posts by a long shot.


Ascerbic as ever ct :whistle:

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Re: The Winkie's explained

Postby vicster111 » 18 Dec 2015

Thank you for posting this, Herb! Interesting stuff! Even if the Winkie's scene with Dan and Herb does not work out to be mathmatically exact, it does fit the overall structure of the film. I have always thought that Dan's account was key, but never settled on how. Your explanation is one of the best I can remember seeing for quite a while, and it could very well be the answer to the question "Who gives a key and why?". Now to see how his feelings relate to each 'section'. :D

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