It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

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outofthewoods
 
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It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby outofthewoods » 06 Apr 2014

Do we trust Louise's words when she says Betty isn't her name? I feel like we should! B/c is Betty really what she seems? Doesn't Betty hold the box in her purse--the entire time--up until "Rita" takes her to CS? The box that is meant to be opened by so-called Rita's key?
When Betty holds her box in both her hands, is she not--therefore-- holding onto the entire mystery regarding so-called Rita's identity and past in her hands? (after all, that is what "Rita's" key opens isn't it? Is that why "Betty" trembles uncontrollably before retrieving the box?)
So wasn't the whole "Rita" thing a secret, being kept by "Betty"? Was Betty hiding that box in her black purse on purpose? That's the real question I'm asking myself... Since "Betty" consciously reaches into her purse to get the box--which means she knows that it's there and that it's time to hand it over to so-called Rita--does that mean "Betty" knew it the whole time? Has she been playing a "role" like an actress and fooling us all? Was she lying to us? Or was she, herself, blinded [by her perfect mystery/sad illusion], and therefore the visit to Club Silencio is what makes her suddenly remember? Hmmm.....

When you go back and watch the scene where "Betty" hands "Rita" her purse and they find the money, and then the key (in place of an ID)... think of the deep and meaningful connotations behind those beautiful close-ups of theirs eyes interlocking with one another and you remember... Betty has the box.

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Re: It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby KyleOrKyla » 06 Apr 2014

(I'll throw some wood on the fire, but as I've said my "Read" usually just cues off an element here or there, rather than factoring in dozens of commonly accepted theories) --

outofthewoods wrote:When you go back and watch the scene where "Betty" hands "Rita" her purse and they find the money, and then the key (in place of an ID)... think of the deep and meaningful connotations behind those beautiful close-ups of theirs eyes interlocking with one another and you remember... Betty has the box.


Cuing off the Money and the Key that were in the purse, one could say:

the Money and the Key are the "before" (pile of money for the hitman) and "after" ("you'll find this where I told you") of the murder that Diane orchestrates...

the Box is the event itself.

If this is on some level an escapist dream, Diane Knows the event itself -- that's what she's trying to escape...so, the box could have always been in the purse.

If you ask me, most of that still gels okay if you take the Box as repressed memories of childhood sexual abuse (the money = "you and your aunt have an arrangement", the key = something that triggers the memories), but its a much less linear path to tie it all together.
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Re: It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby outofthewoods » 08 Jan 2015

KyleOrKyla wrote:If this is on some level an escapist dream, Diane Knows the event itself -- that's what she's trying to escape...so, the box could have always been in the purse.

As the detective would say, "That's what I'm thinkin'."

it's also interesting how the purse Betty pulls the box out of, looks the same as Rita's purse, and Diane's purse with the money in it.

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Re: It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby Siku » 16 Jan 2015

outofthewoods wrote:it's also interesting how the purse Betty pulls the box out of, looks the same as Rita's purse, and Diane's purse with the money in it.


VERY interesting! Let's have some screen grabs. Could be worth putting on main site Blu/Bob?

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Re: It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby outofthewoods » 16 Jan 2015

Siku wrote:
outofthewoods wrote:it's also interesting how the purse Betty pulls the box out of, looks the same as Rita's purse, and Diane's purse with the money in it.


VERY interesting! Let's have some screen grabs. Could be worth putting on main site Blu/Bob?

They are similar in the fact that they are small and black. The difference is, Rita's purse and Diane's purse, the two with stacks of cash, have zipper closures. Betty's has a snap closure.

I just realized I mis-titled this topic. It was meant to read "Betty had the box the whole time." I don't believe the box just magically appears. I think it was there the entire time, but Betty just didn't know it until she hears the Llorando song. During that scene, nothing peculiar happens to make her think that something just appeared in her bag. She just somehow gets the urge to look. She remembers that it's there. I insinuate that Betty was "acting" the whole time, but that can't be true. If she was aware of what was going on and pretending not to, then she would not be trying to help Rita solve the mystery, she'd be just as afraid as Rita. The box represents the entire mystery. To figure out who Rita really is, they need to figure out what that strange blue key opens. It opens the box, and it was Betty who had the box without knowing, which means Rita's true identity was always in Betty's hands. Betty and Rita disappear and the story switches to Diane and Camilla. So Betty and Rita had a history they were unaware of, and that was the mystery they needed to solve.

It makes sense when we consider the climax of the film, which I believe is the scene Betty declares to Rita "I'm in love with you.' (I believe this is the eye of the duck scene). This is the catalyst that causes the story to take a huge turn.

It was never clear to the viewer that Betty has these strong feelings about Rita. It catches us by complete surprise b/c we just assume Betty is just a naive and friendly woman. She's like Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz in that she behaves much younger than she actually looks. We never suspect Betty of being a lesbian and being in love with Rita. How can that even make sense? Rita is not her name, Rita does not remember who she is, Rita has no identity. How can Betty fall in love with a complete stranger with no identity? It doesn't make sense.... until the blue box is opened.

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Re: It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby Siku » 19 Jan 2015

Rita's handbag:
Rita handbag close.png

's handbag wide.png

Betty's handbag:
Betty handbag close.png

Betty handbag wide.png

Diane's handbag:
Diane handbag.png

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Siku
 
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Re: It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby Siku » 19 Jan 2015

outofthewoods wrote:it's also interesting how the purse Betty pulls the box out of, looks the same as Rita's purse, and Diane's purse with the money in it.


Rita's handbag with the money in it looks the same as Diane's handbag with the money in it. Could be the same prop even. There's only that one shot of Diane's handbag.

Betty's handbag, from which she pulls the blue box, is a little different.

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Re: It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby outofthewoods » 19 Jan 2015

Yeah, I already clarified this in the post above yours :P But thank you for the screenshots! :)

They are similar in the fact that they are small and black. The difference is, Rita's purse and Diane's purse, the two with stacks of cash, have zipper closures. Betty's has a snap closure.


It's so very interesting to think about the fact that "Rita" has the bag full of money that Diane used to put the hit on her, as well as a blue key which is intended to confirm that the deed has been done. It says a LOT about Betty's desire to hide them. It also makes a lot of sense from both a dream standpoint as well as an afterlife one. Camilla is in possession of the things that brought about/symbolize her murder/death. Therefore, the money, the key, and the purse are not "Rita's" things, they're Diane's, and that was the mystery Betty and Rita were intended to solve.

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Re: It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby Siku » 22 Jan 2015

outofthewoods wrote:It says a LOT about Betty's desire to hide them... Camilla is in possession of the things that brought about/symbolize her murder/death.


Right, talk about transferance!

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Re: It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby Coffee Cup » 27 May 2015

Love this stuff!

I don't think it's of much importance though to try and figure out who is in possession of the box or if someone had it the whole time. To get the meaning of the box, you have to understand who the man behind Winkies is. The two of them are closely related.

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Re: It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby Siku » 28 May 2015

So who do you think the man behind Winkie's is?

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Re: It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby Coffee Cup » 29 May 2015

Siku wrote:So who do you think the man behind Winkie's is?


Not so much "Who" he is but what he represents.

Assuming that Mulholland Drive is basically the story of Diane Selwyn, the man behind Winkies represents a manifestation of the things that Diane tries to tuck away in the back of her mind and forget about. It's all those dark secrets, bad memories and old fears....of which she has many.

Its' like this: Old fears, secrets and bad memories are kind of like a scary person down an alley way. You know he's down there, so you avoid him as much as possible. You occasionally walk past the alley and glance down there, but quickly walk by. So what happens? Mr. Eyebrows says "I hope I never see that face again outside of a dream", but ultimately he walks down there to face him. In reality, Diane would rather hide from those memories forever. Eventually though, at some point in life, you will indeed have to walk down there and face reality. If you don't, those fears will come find you.

And that's exactly what happened to Diane. In the end of the movie, her greatest fears came back to get her. Then we see the man behind winkies above the bed after Diane kills herself.

The blue box is just a clever way of connecting Diane to the reality that those fears and memories are real and that you can't dream them away forever. That's why the man behind Winkies possesses the box. He is the keeper of those secrets and memories. More importantly though, the old man and the blue box are basically the same thing.

Winkies is also a place of bad memories for Diane. It's where she first got a job when she came to Hollywood. Camilla may have even helped her get that job. Every time Camilla tried to help Diane get a role in a film, Diane failed and had to go back to her shitty job at Winkies while Camilla was paving her way to success. It's also the place where Diane hired the hitman to kill Camilla.

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Re: It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby derekfnord » 29 May 2015

Nice thoughts, Coffee Cup; welcome! :up:

(Pet peeve alert: The person behind Winkie's is actually a woman. I know Dan says it's a man, but... well... it's not. ;-) )

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Re: It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby Coffee Cup » 30 May 2015

Thank you!

I tend to think that a lot of the things in Mulholland Drive are much more straight forward than they seem to be. And as Lynch says, there's a lot of abstractions. You have to try and identify the abstractions to avoid getting caught up in the details too much.

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Re: It was Betty's box the whole time. Betty's? Or Diane's?

Postby outofthewoods » 21 Jun 2015

derekfnord wrote:(Pet peeve alert: The person behind Winkie's is actually a woman. I know Dan says it's a man, but... well... it's not. ;-) )

It's a pete peeve of mine to assume that, b/c the bum is played by a female, the character is then a female. :P That is not necessarily true. Dan says it's a man, therefore the character is a man. If it looks like a man, if it's called a man, then it's probably a man. :P For all we know, Lynch picked the female b/c she had the facial features he was looking for. The actress has masculine features in her face. Maybe it was her big, crooked nose that he liked :P. Besides, I don't think the distinction is important b/c we don't need to know that the bum is played by a female in order to connect the bum to Diane, b/c the film itself makes that connection for us, b/c the bum is shown after Diane's suicide and superimposed over Betty's face.


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