Dream within a dream

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Erniesam
 
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Dream within a dream

Postby Erniesam » 26 Oct 2013

I looked around on this website and I came across something very interesting, something I did not notice before.

I was aware that the scene with Dan and Herb is in the dream of Rita, while she is asleep under the table after Aunt Ruth leaves (because Dan says it is the second dream he had, but both are the same) What did NOT occur to me, is that Rita sleeps a SECOND time and during this second time ALL the other characters are introduced (Castigliani brothers, Adam and the hitman). Wow, that changes the STRUCTURE of the movie, because ALL the main characters are introduced to us in the dreams of RITA!

The structure would now be as follows: dream within dream / dream / fantasy / reality.

This dream within a dream (or the dreams of Rita) are a level deeper into the fantasy world of Diane.

O dear, I love this website and all the different suggestions and views.

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Erniesam
 
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Re: Dream within a dream

Postby Erniesam » 27 Oct 2013

A small correction: Rita has only ONE dream. This begins when she falls asleep under the table when Aunt Ruth has left and ends with her waking up in Aunt Ruth's appartment and she says: "I thought sleep would do it."

So, Rita dreams that she goes to sleep and eventually wakes up at the same time her real dream ends!

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derekfnord
 
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Re: Dream within a dream

Postby derekfnord » 27 Oct 2013

So you're saying that the Dan and Herb scene, the phone call chain, Betty's arrival at LAX, the evil oldsters in the car, Betty's arrival at Havenhurst and introduction to Coco, Betty catching "Rita" in the shower, them discussing her hitting her head, Adam's meeting at Ryan Enterprises, trashing the Castigliane Bros. car, Ray's meeting with Mr. Roque, Joe & Ed and the incompetent hit, and Betty's phone conversation with Aunt Ruth, are all part of Rita's dream?

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Erniesam
 
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Re: Dream within a dream

Postby Erniesam » 27 Oct 2013

Yes, that's what I'm saying indeed. This would explain to me the difference in appearance of all the characters in the second half of the dreamsequence:

hitman unsure and uncertain ---> hitman proceeds methodically in his pursuit of Rita
Adam agressive ---> Adam very passive
Castigliani brothers very intimidating ---> Luigi Castigliani just approving of Adam's choice

Furthermore, the scene with Dan and Herb is further removed from reality than is the scene with Rita and Betty at Winkie's (Dan and Herb are probably based on persons Diane has seen or met in real life, while Betty is a physical representation of Diane herself).

Also, at the beginning of the movie we see the street sign of "Sunset blvd" which in my mind stands for the point-of-view of Rita, because what follows is her dream. And after the dream, with Rita and Betty in Winkie's we see Diane the waitress and the "Sunset blvd" logo again, because now the point-of-view has shifted to Diane, in whose dream we have landed after the dream of Rita had ended when she woke up in the appartment.

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Re: Dream within a dream

Postby derekfnord » 27 Oct 2013

Well, but elements of those scenes (the ones you would include in Rita's dream) are referred to by other characters outside that framing. For example, Betty's phone conversation with Aunt Ruth is later discussed by Betty and Coco in the "don't make me out to be a sucker" scene.

Plus, how does Betty change from the way she is in "Rita's dream" to how she is after Rita wakes up (but before Diane wakes up)?

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Re: Dream within a dream

Postby Erniesam » 27 Oct 2013

Good questions indeed. I've wondered about that too. I don't think you should see the segments as two different elements in the film and equate the dream of Rita with the fantasy and reality segment. You have to remember that it is still Diane who dreams the dream of Rita: Diane can pick and choose from Rita's dream, but Rita not from Diane's dream. So Diane knows what's going on in Rita's dream and therefore can talk all about what happened in her "own" dream.

The function of Rita's dream in my mind is to suppress reality as far away as possible. Diane let's Rita dream in the hope that she can bury reality even further as she could in her "own" dream. And reality is indeed locked further away from reality than in Diane's "own" dream. When Rita says: "I thought sleep would do it," she means within that scene that she hoped to be able to remember her name, but it also means that Diane hoped that the dream of Rita would suppress reality deeper, but...Diane cannot keep Rita asleep for long.

To see this as a dream of Rita would also explain the shot of Rita still sleeping after the scene with Dan and Herb. Why would Lynch show us Rita sleeping, while we already know that she was asleep and that the scene with Dan and Herb was probably a dream of hers? To me this suggest that Lynch is saying to the audience: "Watch out, Rita is still asleep. It's not only this scene but a whole bunch of scenes that follow that are in her dream." Indeed, during these following scenes we do not see Rita wake up. Only in the appartment do we see her awaken.

No, how can that be? We have seen Rita fallen asleep and within her dream she falls asleep again? This had me puzzled a bit, but I guess it's actually quite simple: Rita dreams indeed of herself falling asleep, but it is DIANE who dreams about Rita waking up! We have to remember that Rita is just a persona in Diane's dream and it is Diane herself that dreams of Rita having a dream. This dream within a dream is just a tool of Diane to get as far away from reality as possible.

So does Rita dream? Yes, but because she is just a persona in Diane's dream, it is actually Diane herself who dreams the whole thing.

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Re: Dream within a dream

Postby Erskine » 18 Nov 2013

"I hope I never see that face outside of a dream." The man behind Winkies. We see him in the first half, and second half. It's all a dream.

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Re: Dream within a dream

Postby Erniesam » 19 Nov 2013

What do you mean: "It's all a dream"?

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Re: Dream within a dream

Postby Erskine » 22 Nov 2013

Dans says he hopes to never see that face outside of a dream. Dan(whoever he is intended to represent) only sees the figure behind Winkies in a dream. The next time we see the figure behind Winkies is in the second segment. If we suppose and I believe it to be correct that the figure behind Winkies only exists in a dream then in each segment that the figure appears is within the context of a dream.

If we accept that there is no partition or explicit "real" event that breaks up the first sequence from the second sequence then what we are left with is a complete dream. It is either a dream within a dream or an interuppted dream in which there is brief period of lucidity before Diane, the Sleeper, falls back asleep and her dream continues but as a nightmare. In this regard we do not even have to take the events of the dream as having any basis in reality, and can accept that maybe it is only the minds attempt to reconcile troubles in the Sleepers life.

Additionally, througout the film there is background noise. A good example is when Adam goes out to smash the car, you can hear a series of knocks at a door. If one were dreaming and someone was knocking at a "real" door this sound may not rouse the Sleeper but it could be interpreted and incorporated into the dream by the subconcious.

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Re: Dream within a dream

Postby Erniesam » 23 Nov 2013

Well, you cannot say that it's ALL a dream for several reasons.

1. The second segment contains many persona's from the first, but here they have another role. Not only that, in the second segment the persona's are closer to reality. There HAS to be a distinction between the first and the second segment, because the story moves toward the the KEY to Diane's trauma: it realy moves toward the within of Diane.

2. The second segment is different, because it explains alot about what's going on in the first. The only conclusion one can make, is that the second segment plays within a higher consciousness of Diane than the first. This is the fantasy she creates during the day.

3. There are three scenes which play out in reality, while the last is a mixture of sort.
A. THe scene where Diane falls asleep at the beginning.
B. The meeting with her neighbor (her former roommate and lover) and a portion of Diane in the kitchen making coffee.
C. The masturbationscene
D. The last scene when she commits suicide, although the scene itself plays WITHIN Diane.

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Siku
 
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Re: Dream within a dream

Postby Siku » 24 Nov 2013

Excellent work Erskine - seeing everything as dream or at least equal...

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Erniesam
 
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Re: Dream within a dream

Postby Erniesam » 26 Nov 2013

I appreciate the creative thinking of you, Erskine. The fact that you see it possibly as all one dream is interesting, but I still beg to differ with you on several points.

First of all, when you disregard the scenes being played in reality as part of the dream, you take out the logical sequence of events. These three scenes explain alot about the plot, especially the one where the lady comes to pick up her stuf. To me that's the crucial scene, which tells us so many things.

Secondly, you say that Dan does not see the bum outside of his dream. Well, he does. Dan is a substitute for Diane and Diane does see the bum again after she makes the deal with the hit man. That is outside of her dream, because this is her fantasy.

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jonatan_silva
 
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Re: Dream within a dream

Postby jonatan_silva » 22 Apr 2015

I think there's a tinny line between reality and dream in MD.


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