Mr. Roque = Ray's Conscience?

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derekfnord
 
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Mr. Roque = Ray's Conscience?

Postby derekfnord » 15 Oct 2013

I know it's an old idea that Mr. Roque embodies Ray in some manner. But watching that scene today, I was struck with the idea that Mr. Roque could symbolize Ray's conscience. (And by extension, the "conscience" of the movie industry in general.)

It's severely atrophied. Roque can barely move, and looks like someone literally shriveling up (with his head appearing too small for his body, thanks to "Little Mike" and the oversized body prop).

It's in a position of apparent prominence, given a commanding "office" on the deep within (or atop) Ray's building/psyche, complete with a servant ready to do whatever it demands. But at this point, Roque literally sits motionless in the dark until Ray comes in to consult him, and the servant seems almost coated with a layer of dust due to inactivity.

A functional conscience would be Ray's last bastion of backbone, giving him his marching orders and helping him make the right decisions in difficult situations. Instead, he has Mr. Roque... who barely responds at all ("Yes?" "Then?"), rather than encouraging him to do the right thing.

Out of the tension between the tantrum-throwing Id and the demanding Superego, the healthy Ego is supposed to arise. But Ray's (Hollywood's?) Superego produces no such tension, issues no demands, and certainly makes no attempt to "physically" force the petulant Id back on the right track (within this symbolic landscape). How could it? Roque is not only unable to move, he's completely disconnected from Ray by the transparent barrier.

Ray (and Hollywood) has a crippled conscience... one that scarcely advises even when consulted, and that meekly abandons artistic vision and quickly acquiesces when the money players pout...

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Re: Mr. Roque = Ray's Conscience?

Postby blu » 16 Oct 2013

For reference, some people may not have seen the quote on Mr. Roque's page on the main site that came directly from Michael Anderson when old time RT contributor TristanLove bumped into him in LA and chatted for a while with him.

From the horse's mouth:

Michael J. Anderson was playing Ray. He IS Ray. This is not negotiable. David told the guy who played Ray, that he wants to bring in "little Mike" to play his character. He represents him. In the pilot, Ray has to go deeper and deeper into a building, down corridors, through doors - metaphorically deeper into his own subconscious to find a justification for what he has to do.

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Re: Mr. Roque = Ray's Conscience?

Postby derekfnord » 17 Oct 2013

Yep, that's basically what I was building on. Roque represents Ray... I was just expanding that into thinking perhaps Roque represents Ray's conscience specifically. :)

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Re: Mr. Roque = Ray's Conscience?

Postby Siku » 17 Oct 2013

Derek, I like this a lot. So why might his conscience tell him to "shut everything down"?

As to the "Roque IS Ray" quote, are we saying Lynch told Robert Katims (Ray) who told Michael J. Anderson who told TristanLove who told us?

It makes a lot of sense but it's so rare to get a scoop like this. Also I find the turn of phrase, "This is not negotiable" very odd. Did Anderson reportedly say those actual words?

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Re: Mr. Roque = Ray's Conscience?

Postby derekfnord » 18 Oct 2013

Siku wrote:Derek, I like this a lot. So why might his conscience tell him to "shut everything down"?


It didn't. It didn't tell him anything. It just asked him a couple of vague, prompting, monosyllabic questions.

Shutting everything down (i.e., within the context of the dream storyline, shutting down the movie production to strongarm Adam into casting blonde Camilla) meant capitulating to what the Castigliane Brothers wanted. His (dysfunctional) conscience failed to tell him not to shut everything down...

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Re: Mr. Roque = Ray's Conscience?

Postby Siku » 19 Oct 2013

You're right - Ray only interprets Mr Roque as saying shut everything down, but he never actually says anything much!

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Re: Mr. Roque = Ray's Conscience?

Postby Erniesam » 19 Oct 2013

I have a different approach to Mr. Rogue, although what has been said here is intriguing also. I've come up with this idea with help of the essay by Alan Shaw. The name Rogue sounds like "rock"= a lifeless object. Mr. Rogue is indeed hardly able to move. Furthermore, Ray has to speak to him through a microphone, because Mr. Rogue sits behind glass. So, Mr. Rogue represents the true, physical appearance of Diane. She too sits inside her apartment almost lifeless and nobody is able to speak to her exept through the intercom (Diane doesn't answer the telephone). The fact that Mr. Rogue is small and a little disproportioned, seems to me to represent the shrunken state of Diane's mental health.

Why shut everything down? My guess is that Mr. Rogue is part of the truth or subconscious in Diane and he directs her to the truth. And the truth is that Ray HAS to get Camilla Rhodes, because she played that role in real life. To shut everything down obviously means, that the filmproduction has to come to a halt in order to pressure Adam in casting Camilla Rhodes. But...it may also mean, that the production of Diane's fantasy has to be shut down: Mr. Rogue is ordering Diane to leave her fantasy and to confront her trauma.

In my opinion, Mr. Rogue is an illusive character not easily pinned down. The fact that he only hints and never tells Ray to do anything must mean something. More importantly: the first suggestion Ray makes is to fire Adam and get another director. Maybe Lynch's way to illustrate the way Hollywood handles directors? But within the context of the movie, it is more interesting, because firing Adam will mean a step away from the truth: not that Adam directed the movie in real life (we have no clear proof to substantiate that), but because Camilla Rhodes REALY played that part. My guess is that Ray represents Diane in her dream and Diane wants the role herself. But she has to give in to Mr. Rogue, because he represents the truth. But than you have to ask yourself: WHY would Ray consult Mr. Rogue? So, Diane is NOT Ray but tries THROUGH him to steer the dream / the production favorably in her way. That's why Ray is so reluctant to come to that conclusion, because Diane is disappointed.

I haven't worked this out specifically, but when you analyse this scene thoroughly, you have to come to the conclusion that 1/ Ray is reluctant to shut the production down and 2/ Mr. Rogue represents part of the truth in Diane.

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Re: Mr. Roque = Ray's Conscience?

Postby Erniesam » 24 Oct 2013

In my post above I used the name Ray to describe the man in front of the glass talking to Mr. Rogue. This obviously was an error of mine. I took the name Ray from the earlier posts on this thread, I guess it got stuck with while I was writing my post. I don't know the name of the talking man and I don't believe it is mentioned anywhere in the movie. I guess he's some kind of manager or spokes person for the studio or the producer, Jason.

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Re: Mr. Roque = Ray's Conscience?

Postby ctyankee » 24 Oct 2013

You were correct the first time. Ray is the man on the other side of the glass from Mr. Rogue. He is addressed by name by Adam in the conference room scene. I don't think there is a Jason involved.

Moving on ... to me Mr. Rogue is Lynch's rather unveiled slap at studio execs in general. He is a sort of Nowhere Man ...

He's a real nowhere man,
Sitting in his Nowhere Land,
Making all his nowhere plans
for nobody.

Doesn't have a point of view,
Knows not where he's going to,
Isn't he a bit like you and me?

I see Ray as a survivor. A battle weary political survivalist in the trench wars of Hollywood Studio politics rather than some portion and/or alter-ego to Mr. Rogue.

As far as Mr. Rogue not giving clear direction ... isn't that the point? As far as he being only an extension of Ray (or vice-versa) ... that's just not supported by the story. Mr. Rogue makes a phone call saying the girl's still missing, Mr. Rogue is watching the proceedings of the board room meeting with Ray and Adam in progress. So ... while you can say no one really exists in a dream (if you see the first part of the film as a dream) he does take actions apart from Ray.

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Re: Mr. Roque = Ray's Conscience?

Postby Erniesam » 24 Oct 2013

Hmmm, that's pretty interesting, ctyankee.

First I never noticed that Adam called him Ray. So this man who talks to Mr. Rogue is Ray. Okay. You think they are seperate entities? So do I. To be honest, I don't see how Mr. Rogue can be the conscience of Ray, because Ray does not play an important part in the movie. By the way, Jason is the producer of the movie Adam directs.
My point is: WHY does Ray seek approval of Mr. Rogue? As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think Mr. Rogue represents part of the truth in Diane and Ray HAS to get approval of him in order to make sure the narration of the dream is heading towards reality. But the question remains: WHO represents Ray?

I find it interesting what you said about Mr. Rogue. You say he is in nowhere land and does not know which way to go. That view coincides with my view of him, that is that he represents the physical reality of Diane. She also sits in nowhere land and does not know which way to go. The fact that Mr. Rogue does not give clear directions could also resemble Diane in reality. It is Ray who comes to the conclusion to shut everything down.

I'm still not quite sure what to make of Ray and his interpretation of the reaction of Mr. Rogue.


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