DeRosa Is The Only Character...

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elijawan
 
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DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby elijawan » 15 Jun 2013

New to the forum, been reading for weeks now. Fantastic discussions.
(Just to clarify up front, I prefer to call the first portion of the movie the 'dream' and the second portion of the movie 'reality' for ease of reference only)

Has anyone attached any significance to the fact that the neighbor/woman in #12/DeRosa (Wi12) is the only character in the movie that knows Diane Selwyn in both the "dream" and "reality" portions of the movie?

Wi12 doesn't recognize Naomi Watts's character (Betty) as being Diane Selwyn in the dream, but she does know who Diane Selwyn is, and she certainly knows Diane in reality.

I haven't wrapped my head around it just yet, but I can't escape the feeling that this is a pretty significant aspect of the Wi12 character, especially when I consider that the dream was shot as part of the TV pilot and the reality portion was produced to tie all of the dangling threads into a whole.

In his recycling actors, characters and themes from the dream, Lynch only allows for one character that knows Diane in both sections.

Does this change anyone's conclusions about some of the common issues related to Wi12:
  • Did the apartment swap happen?
  • Was she one of Diane's lovers, or just a roommate?
  • Is she the REAL Camilla in Diane's life - there is no Camilla?
  • What does "three weeks" mean?

Curious to know what y'all think.

Thanks.

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Bob
 
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Re: DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby Bob » 15 Jun 2013

All valid questions ... all of which I have become comfortable with not knowing the answer to. :whistle:

Anyway, here's one more for your list:
  • Why would Lynch have her wear the same outfit in reality and dream with the latter chronologically coming first? Is Diane a psychic or does it hint into a different direction of how to connect those scenes?

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blu
 
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Re: DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby blu » 15 Jun 2013

And why does her hair change between the dream and reality?

:holmes:

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skytop
 
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Re: DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby skytop » 16 Jun 2013

some have speculated that in the "dream" sequence Derosa might not actually see Betty, as if Betty is not really there. If you watch the scene again with that in mind you may notice that she never really looks in Betty's direction and that her answers might have been prompted by Rita's awkward silence rather than Betty's questions.

In that scenario Derosa wouldn't actually know Betty/Diane in both worlds :holmes: :holmes:

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Re: DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby derekfnord » 16 Jun 2013

skytop wrote:some have speculated that in the "dream" sequence Derosa might not actually see Betty, as if Betty is not really there. If you watch the scene again with that in mind you may notice that she never really looks in Betty's direction and that her answers might have been prompted by Rita's awkward silence rather than Betty's questions.


But it's Betty who knocks at the door. So if Betty is not really there from DeRosa's perspective, why does she answer the door? Also, after DeRosa answers and says "Yes?", Betty says "Diane?" and DeRosa says "Number 17." So if DeRosa is saying "number 17" without hearing Betty, just based on Rita's awkward silence, then that would have to mean that she still does know Diane in both, because she knows to connect Rita/Camilla to Diane without being asked (again, assuming she isn't hearing Betty).

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Re: DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby elijawan » 16 Jun 2013

Lynch re-uses the only character who knows Diane Selwyn from the dream in the reality section, and doesn't change the nature of her relationship to Diane Selwyn, nor does there seem to be any inconsistency (other than a haircut) between the Wi12 that Betty/Rita encounter and the woman that comes to collect her things from Diane at the end. In other words, the "we switched apartments" line from the dream, while not necessarily "true" in the sense that it actually happened, is carried through coherently to the reality section. Nothing else we see in the reality part, at least that I can recall, is presented as a logical and un-ambiguous continuation of what is presented in the dream.

I'm struggling to get a handle on this, because Lynch did edit things out of the pilot and did re-shoot some scenes (esp Park Hotel/Adam), so what does it mean that
a) he did not introduce anything new into the dream about Diane Selwyn, and
b) when adding material for the reality section, this is the only thread/relationship that carries through directly from the dream?

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Bob
 
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Re: DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby Bob » 16 Jun 2013

elijawan wrote:In other words, the "we switched apartments" line from the dream, while not necessarily "true" in the sense that it actually happened, is carried through coherently to the reality section. Nothing else we see in the reality part, at least that I can recall, is presented as a logical and un-ambiguous continuation of what is presented in the dream.

Well put.

elijawan wrote:Lynch … did re-shoot some scenes (esp Park Hotel/Adam)

Can you back that up? The Park Hotel scene differs from what's in the pilot script, but according to an interview with Geno Silva in "Wrapped in Plastic" the scene at the Beverly Hills Hotel never came to realize.
http://mulholland-drive.net/studies/par ... htm#trivia (Section "Set Trivia - Geno Silva (Cookie) in interview")
http://mulholland-drive.net/cast/cookie.htm#trivia (Section "Trivia: Geno Silva on the shoot of his scenes")

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elijawan
 
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Re: DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby elijawan » 17 Jun 2013

elijawan wrote:
"Lynch … did re-shoot some scenes (esp Park Hotel/Adam)"
Bob wrote:
"Can you back that up?"
--
Apparently not. I misinterpreted something I'd read a few years ago - it was re-shot, but as part of the pilot filming, not year later as part of the feature.

My bad, thanks for the call out.

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Bob
 
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Re: DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby Bob » 17 Jun 2013

Do you remember where you got that information from? It might be of interest nonetheless.

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Siku
 
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Re: DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby Siku » 19 Jun 2013

DeRosa is the only other character in the movie. That is, excluding dream, fantasy, memory and hallucination.

Yes she's Diane's lover.
Yes she's the real Camilla (or at least one of the primary sources from which Diane construsted her fantasy lover. It's fun to speculate that we see another one here).
The three weeks is the time elapsed since their break up.
The apartment swap wasn't a swap, it was a shift from living together to living apart.

Details are hazey. Solve this and you'll be my guru forever. :nod:

For me this is the central story of Mulholland Drive - everything else is just back story and subplot. Excuse the bump but in this thread a fair few contributors have thrashed out these ideas.

BTW, talking of the apartment swap. I only just noticed that Betty and Aunt Ruth swap apartments: Aunt Ruth goes from Havenhurst to Canada, while Betty does the reverse.

Love to hear more of your thoughts on all this, elijawan.

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Re: DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby ctyankee » 20 Jun 2013

elijawan wrote:New to the forum, been reading for weeks now. Fantastic discussions.
(Just to clarify up front, I prefer to call the first portion of the movie the 'dream' and the second portion of the movie 'reality' for ease of reference only)

Has anyone attached any significance to the fact that the neighbor/woman in #12/DeRosa (Wi12) is the only character in the movie that knows Diane Selwyn in both the "dream" and "reality" portions of the movie?

Wi12 doesn't recognize Naomi Watts's character (Betty) as being Diane Selwyn in the dream, but she does know who Diane Selwyn is, and she certainly knows Diane in reality.

I haven't wrapped my head around it just yet, but I can't escape the feeling that this is a pretty significant aspect of the Wi12 character, especially when I consider that the dream was shot as part of the TV pilot and the reality portion was produced to tie all of the dangling threads into a whole.

In his recycling actors, characters and themes from the dream, Lynch only allows for one character that knows Diane in both sections.


But, is it established that the Lamp Lady (i.e., W12) is the same character in both dream/reality? As we don't know her name, one could suggest that Lynch is using the Wizard of Oz approach of re-using actors. And as you mentioned yourself, that the Lamp Lady isn't taken back by the appearance of a Diane look-a-like on her front porch would seem to diminish any strong connection. After all, it's hard to make too much out of something that happens in a dream even if the character stays the same.

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Re: DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby kmkmiller » 20 Jun 2013

It is probably something only I see.

good point, ctyankee. many things just aren't established here.
Last edited by kmkmiller on 20 Jun 2013, edited 1 time in total.

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Siku
 
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Re: DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby Siku » 20 Jun 2013

kmkmiller wrote:It is probably something only I see.

good point, ctyankee. lots of things just aren't established here.

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Re: DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby kmkmiller » 20 Jun 2013

that's not what I said.

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elijawan
 
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Re: DeRosa Is The Only Character...

Postby elijawan » 22 Jun 2013

ctyankee wrote:But, is it established that the Lamp Lady (i.e., W12) is the same character in both dream/reality? As we don't know her name, one could suggest that Lynch is using the Wizard of Oz approach of re-using actors. And as you mentioned yourself, that the Lamp Lady isn't taken back by the appearance of a Diane look-a-like on her front porch would seem to diminish any strong connection. After all, it's hard to make too much out of something that happens in a dream even if the character stays the same.


Yes, it is quite firmly established, IMO. Wi12 has the same relationship with Diane Selwin (the character) in both the dream and reality sections. This is, for me, anyway, incontrovertible, as there is nothing presented in the dream about their relationship that is twisted, contorted, omitted or changed in the reality. In fact, the reality picks up exactly where the dream leaves off:
"she has some of my stuff"
The next time we see her it's "I'm here for my stuff."

All other relationships are switched or contorted in some way between dream and reality.
Dream: Camilla is a blonde nobody being foisted on Adam Kesher.
Reality: Camilla is at least Adam's lover, probably fiancé, and certainly not blonde.

I think if there's one other character with continuity, sort of, it's Adam. He talks about his wife and the pool man, which we see played out in the dream. I'm at a loss for other examples of character continuity coupled with storyline continuity.

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