Grandparents definitely exist

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kmkmiller
 
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Re: Grandparents definitely exist

Postby kmkmiller » 18 Mar 2013

Yo http://mulholland-drive.net/cast/elderly.htm

There's more than a couple ideas offered on that study page, as far as explaining the "hallucination" is concerned, I think the old couple as "Erinyes" (The Furies) makes the most sense.

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Re: Grandparents definitely exist

Postby BOTWOOD » 18 Mar 2013

I read this page thoroughly before posting, but I was really struggling with the fact that - if they are not her grandparents, why are they important enough to be the manifestation of so many different emotions?

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Re: Grandparents definitely exist

Postby derekfnord » 18 Mar 2013

BOTWOOD wrote:After this discussion, i am more of the persuasion that Irene and her companion are not Betty's grandparents. But I am still having trouble with their return for the ending. If there was either:

a) sexual abuse
b) unresonable expectations by a parent or grandparent/guardain

what is the significance of their appearance at the end? Perhaps, like previously mentioned, they represent Diane's ideal guardians. But the final scene is a hallucination, not a continuation of the dream. So why is she chased by Irene and Dan rather than her real guardians?


Sometimes people in dreams look like someone you don't know personally, but you know that in the dream, it's supposed to be someone you know ("Hey, I had the weirdest dream last night... Me and my two brothers went to this carnival, only instead of Bobby and Joe, my brothers in the dream were Bobby and Bruce Springsteen."). Other times, people in dreams look like someone you do know, but in the dream, they're not who they are in real life ("Bizarre... I was at this party, and me and you and Susan were all there, but in the dream, we didn't know each other, and Susan's name was 'Raphaela'.")

I think it's possible/likely that the people who present themselves in the dream as Betty's newfound friends "Irene and her Companion," are Diane's grandparents/guardians/whatever in real life. Maybe not with the same names or personalities, but with the same appearance. So when we see them later in Diane's hallucination, we're not seeing who they were to Betty in Diane's dream... we're seeing them as they are to Diane's conscious mind (her grandparents or whatever).

Heck, it's even possible that both "visions" of the old couple are reasonably "true" representations of her grandparents in some sense. Perhaps they really are/were kindly and loving when she was young, and their behavior in the hallucination represents how disapproving Diane thinks they would be of where her life has gone.

Now, all that said... let's remember, too, that it's entirely possible that they don't represent her grandparents at all. They could represent something else entirely. For example, I think it's distinctly possible that they're yet another doppelganger for Camilla and Adam.

We basically see the old couple three times: At the airport, in the limo, and when they're hounding Diane. At the airport, Irene is supportive of Betty's career dreams, and the Companion is also friendly (much like Camilla and Adam are to Diane initially). Then when we see them in the limo, they seem like maybe they were just being superficially kind to Betty, while actually mocking her (much as one might see Camilla and Adam deliberately leading Diane on). When we see them at the end, their shrieking and pursuit of Diane seems both vengeful (which would obviously make sense for Camilla and Adam toward Diane at this point) and like an exaggerated reflection of Camilla and Adam's laughter when announcing their (presumed) engagement at the dinner party.

Yet another possibility is that they may be representations of judgment. Irene's name is a homophone for Erinyes, the mythological spirits that would pursue and persecute evil-doers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes

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Re: Grandparents definitely exist

Postby derekfnord » 18 Mar 2013

Heh. I was writing while kmkmiller was posting, and we touched on the same idea regarding the Erinyes. :)

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Re: Grandparents definitely exist

Postby derekfnord » 18 Mar 2013

Also, I should add that they could fill more than one role at once. They could look like Diane's grandparents, and represent their disapproval of her, and represent abusive family members, and represent Camilla and Adam, and be filling the role of Erinyes... all at the same time. :-)

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Re: Grandparents definitely exist

Postby kmkmiller » 18 Mar 2013

Well in Lynch movies I think emotions -- intensity, swings, myriad manifestations, -- happen regardless of relationships... One thing that comes to mind is that scene in wild at heart where sailor and lula see the crash on the side of the road and watch the sherilynn fenn character die ... Lula responds with an intensity of emotion, right? Even though she's not related to this random dying character at all.

But Lula senses the portence of the event, her emotions reflect her own sense of dread of what is to come...

In conclusion I would say the symbolic value of the old couple (as furies) is felt emotionally with or without a backstory relationship.

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Re: Grandparents definitely exist

Postby blu » 18 Mar 2013

I think it's the ideas here about how it's what the old folk spell for Diane emotionally - rather than WHO they are and WHO they represent - that are the important ones.

Diane is broken. A self-perceived failure. In her bid for stardom, her love life, even in her efforts to hold down a part time job at the local diner? She's facing up to having to return to Canada, a complete failure. The boxes in the apartment are not waiting to be unpacked, they're being packed up before she goes back home. The Lamp Lady knows Diane is off and wants her stuff back before she goes.

Their duplicitous nature at LAX - wishing her luck to her face, laughing behind her back. So maybe the olds at the end represent the laughing voices back home, taunting her to her death bed.

"Hahah ... she thought she would move to Hollywood and make it on the big screen. What a joke! What a failure! She'll never amount to anything."

This gets away from them being connected to some form of abuse, but let's throw that into the mix - Diane having to return to Deep River to her abusive family, a failure, and it all begins to stack up as to exactly why she's so profoundly distressed at it all.

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Re: Grandparents definitely exist

Postby blu » 18 Mar 2013

derekfnord wrote:We basically see the old couple three times: At the airport, in the limo, and when they're hounding Diane.

Let's not forget them flanking Diane after the Jitterbug.

:holmes:

Edit: Or Betty, rather, I should have said.

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Re: Grandparents definitely exist

Postby kmkmiller » 18 Mar 2013

Edit: Or Betty, rather, I should have said.


"No. No it's not." -- lb

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Re: Grandparents definitely exist

Postby blu » 18 Mar 2013

cast.jpg

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kmkmiller
 
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Re: Grandparents definitely exist

Postby kmkmiller » 18 Mar 2013

Interesting though ... Is Lynch wrong or is Louise? What would Louise say if she saw the credits at the end of the movie, eh??

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Re: Grandparents definitely exist

Postby derekfnord » 18 Mar 2013

blu wrote:
derekfnord wrote:We basically see the old couple three times: At the airport, in the limo, and when they're hounding Diane.

Let's not forget them flanking Diane after the Jitterbug.

:holmes:

Edit: Or Betty, rather, I should have said.


Ah, very true! And I think that one also works as either grandparent-figures, or as Camilla/Adam doppelgangers. The former as people associated with home and the jitterbug contest story, and the latter as figures associated with Diane/Betty's hope of making it in Hollywood.

EDIT: Actually, the more I think about it, I think that appearance of the couple actually works better as Camilla/Adam doppelgangers, being superimposed as they are atop the whole scene...

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Re: Grandparents definitely exist

Postby Erniesam » 23 Oct 2013

To me it is obvious that Irene and her partner ARE Diane's grandparents (or fosterparents, but not very likely) and that they ARE responsible for the abuse of Diane, hence their frightful return at the end of the movie. The fact that Diane pictures them as strangers she just met in her dream is logical: as far away from reality as possible. The fact that they are nice is also logical. The partner of Irene, that is Diane's grandfather, pops up after we are introduced to Diane and Irene. I guess Diane tried to suppress him completely, but reality in her would not permit that.

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