Help me piece this puzzle together

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purrs
 
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Help me piece this puzzle together

Postby purrs » 02 Dec 2012

This is my observation on the film:

Please try and find holes in this, as I enjoy trying to work this puzzle in my head.

Diane and Camilla are both aspiring actresses and lovers.
Bob Brooker is casting for Sylvia North Story.
Camilla is the first to audition.
Diane is the second to audition.
Even though everyone liked Diane better, Bob chooses Camilla.
While Camilla is auditioning for Adam's 50's film, Diane arrives and sees Camilla singing.
Not wanting to compete with her lover she flees the audition.
Camilla becomes a new movie star.
Camilla gets the lead role and helps Diane get a part in the film.
During filming Camilla must do whats best for her Career and leave Diane and be with Adam.
Camilla breaks up with Diane but she still loves Diane, but Diane is so hurt she wants to make sure that Camilla will suffer with her.
<Time passes>
During Camillas engagement party she invites Diane to hurt her.
Diane wants vengence and hires a hit on Camilla.
Diane hires Joe, Joe works with Ed.
The hit on Camilla is interupted by the accident.
Camilla wanders to her future mother in laws apartments with no memories and brain trauma.
The same night of the accident Diane commits suicide.
Joe meets Ed to discuss the hit, Ed explains the accident and they both start laughing. Joe kills Ed.
Joe asks Laney if she has seen a brunette and to keep an eye out while she works the streets.
Camilla suffering from severe brain trauma begins hallucinating about Betty in the likeness of her lover Diane.
There is a note pinned to a robe that Camilla is wearing, the name is Betsie, or Rita and Betty written on top of each other.
Betty is not real, she is in fact Camilla. They are the same person, Camilla is hallucinating. Betty takes the note off the robe, the note wasn't real.
At the end of the film's timeline when Camilla opens the blue box, Betty finally disappears.
Camilla eventually remembers Diane, and investigates her memories. She finds Diane's dead body.
While she does not understand her true horror of Diane's death due to her memory loss, her subconcious is very well aware of what she had done to Diane. Immediately following the revelation of Diane to her subconscious she makes love to Betty.
She goes to Silencio and her memories are starting to come back, the opening of the blue box is likely an allusion of her recovery, and Betty disappears, she opens the box and the story ends.

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Bob
 
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Re: Help me piece this puzzle together

Postby Bob » 02 Dec 2012

Not bad, a couple of comments:

Diane and Camilla are both aspiring actresses and lovers.

Bob Brooker is casting for Sylvia North Story.
Camilla is the first to audition.
Diane is the second to audition.
Even though everyone liked Diane better, Bob chooses Camilla.
While Camilla is auditioning for Adam's 50's film, Diane arrives and sees Camilla singing.
Not wanting to compete with her lover she flees the audition.
>> We don't know how much of the Betty-at-Paramount portion is based on reality and how much is just wish thinking. Adam seems to be directing Bob Brooker's movie. Also Diane's talent is to be questioned. But your take seems fine as well.

Camilla becomes a new movie star.
Camilla gets the lead role and helps Diane get a part in the film.
During filming Camilla must do whats best for her Career and leave Diane and be with Adam.

Camilla breaks up with Diane but she still loves Diane, but Diane is so hurt she wants to make sure that Camilla will suffer with her.
<Time passes>
During Camillas engagement party she invites Diane to hurt her.
>> A side note: There's no consensus within the MD community as to whether there actually was a love affair between Diane and Camilla. For all we know, Diane could have been with the woman of #12 and projected Camilla onto her. Perhaps Camilla and Diane had been roommates for a period of time, but the affection portrayed was just one-sided. Within that scenario Camilla wasn't actually trying to hurt Diane at the dinner party, but just invited her as a friend. Compare Camilla not Diane's lover? and Camilla's love was just an illusion

Diane wants vengence and hires a hit on Camilla.
Diane hires Joe, Joe works with Ed.
The hit on Camilla is interupted by the accident.
Camilla wanders to her future mother in laws apartments with no memories and brain trauma.

The same night of the accident Diane commits suicide.
>> The decomposed state of the corpse suggests more time has passed (3 weeks?)

Joe meets Ed to discuss the hit, Ed explains the accident and they both start laughing. Joe kills Ed.
>> The way in which Ed tells the story to Joe doesn't imply that Joe had anything to do with it in the first place. Also Joe asks if Ed will get into trouble. If Joe ordered the hit himself, wouldn't he be in trouble too? And notice that the black book was with Joe already at the time Diane orders the hit at Winkies, which challenges your order of events.

Joe asks Laney if she has seen a brunette and to keep an eye out while she works the streets.
Camilla suffering from severe brain trauma begins hallucinating about Betty in the likeness of her lover Diane.
There is a note pinned to a robe that Camilla is wearing, the name is Betsie, or Rita and Betty written on top of each other.
Betty is not real, she is in fact Camilla. They are the same person, Camilla is hallucinating. Betty takes the note off the robe, the note wasn't real.
At the end of the film's timeline when Camilla opens the blue box, Betty finally disappears.
Camilla eventually remembers Diane, and investigates her memories. She finds Diane's dead body.
While she does not understand her true horror of Diane's death due to her memory loss, her subconcious is very well aware of what she had done to Diane. Immediately following the revelation of Diane to her subconscious she makes love to Betty.
She goes to Silencio and her memories are starting to come back, the opening of the blue box is likely an allusion of her recovery, and Betty disappears, she opens the box and the story ends.

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Re: Help me piece this puzzle together

Postby purrs » 02 Dec 2012

>> A side note: There's no consensus within the MD community as to whether there actually was a love affair between Diane and Camilla. For all we know, Diane could have been with the woman of #12 and projected Camilla onto her. Perhaps Camilla and Diane had been roommates for a period of time, but the affection portrayed was just one-sided. Within that scenario Camilla wasn't actually trying to hurt Diane at the dinner party, but just invited her as a friend. Compare Camilla not Diane's lover? and Camilla's love was just an illusion

Camilla purposely kisses "blonde Camilla" in front of Diane to show her that she has a new female lover and is not suffering like Diane wanted her. She purposely asks Diane to stay while Adam and her make out during filming. Just look at how Camilla is looking at Diane.

I also feel that DeRosa and Diane were previously lovers before Camilla, just the body language when she comes for her things suggest this. This part actually makes very little to no sense to me to be quite honest. DeRosa still wants her things when Diane is dead and Camilla is investigating her memories. I think it was just put in the movie to give clarity into the couch love scene where Camilla dumps Diane, essentially telling the viewer this is a flashback.

>> The decomposed state of the corpse suggests more time has passed (3 weeks?)

It only takes about 3 days for a body to lose its moisture, judging by Camilla's nails (which the Director is constantly showing to us) you can see how much time has really passed. 3 weeks might be stretching it but 1.5-2 weeks sounds reasonable on how those nails grew.

>> The way in which Ed tells the story to Joe doesn't imply that Joe had anything to do with it in the first place. Also Joe asks if Ed will get into trouble. If Joe ordered the hit himself, wouldn't he be in trouble too? And notice that the black book was with Joe already at the time Diane orders the hit at Winkies, which challenges your order of events.

They are laughing at how fate worked, the accident killed Camilla (Ed doesn't know Camilla isn't dead, nobody knows except the two detectives). Joe asks if Ed will get into trouble because there was a gun at the scene and the two hit-men were Ed's guys. They can trace the hit-men back to Ed and Ed can squeal on Joe. Joe has no choice but to kill Ed to protect himself. So yes Joe would definitely be in trouble. The black books are not the same.

====

I think Adam is just a side story, I'm trying to figure out that part of the story as well.

Another thing that bugs me is the ashtray next to Diane's phone, there are a bunch of butts in it, whats up with that? I don't remember anyone smoking in the movie of the main cast. The only smokers are Laney, Joe, and the other guy with Joe.

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Re: Help me piece this puzzle together

Postby Siku » 03 Dec 2012

Thanks for your take, Purrs. I like these interpretations a lot - that treat Rita as Camilla after the hit and don't relegate most of the film to being a dream. I also like your ending whereby Diane thinks she killed Camilla and Camilla thinks she killed Diane. It reminds me of Romeo and Juliette!

I think you'll find quite a lot of bits that won't quite fit into that framework though, as Bob has pointed to. But then that seems to be the case for every interpretation I've read, more or less! There's always some details that won't sit quite right.

Welcome!

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Re: Help me piece this puzzle together

Postby Hatstand O'Connor » 04 Dec 2012

"Camilla purposely kisses "blonde Camilla" in front of Diane to show her that she has a new female lover and is not suffering like Diane wanted her. She purposely asks Diane to stay while Adam and her make out during filming. Just look at how Camilla is looking at Diane."


But is this really happening this way? I can only speak for myself, but having been in some troubled relationships, it can sometimes seem that someone we love is doing something to spite us or hurt us when in truth it's completely innocent. I think it's important to note that when the movie shows us Camilla's overt-yet-subtle cruelty to Diane, we're literally seeing from Diane's point of view (Camilla is looking at us, at the camera). So it's possible that this cruelty is imagined by Diane.

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Re: Help me piece this puzzle together

Postby ctyankee » 06 Dec 2012

purrs wrote:This is my observation on the film:

Please try and find holes in this, as I enjoy trying to work this puzzle in my head.

Diane and Camilla are both aspiring actresses and lovers.
Bob Brooker is casting for Sylvia North Story.
Camilla is the first to audition.
Diane is the second to audition.

Betty is not real, she is in fact Camilla. They are the same person, Camilla is hallucinating. Betty takes the note off the robe, the note wasn't real.


I would suggest that one problem is that Betty auditions for Bob Brooker. We hear her name several times. So, you have an 'unreal' person auditioning. Hallucinating people may see things but they don't audition, now do they?

In general, these kind of theories have been out there. The problem with the slickest ones is that they don't resonate because the story is lacking. Conversely the stories that do resonate have plot/logic problems. It's just the nature of the beast.

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Re: Help me piece this puzzle together

Postby Siku » 07 Dec 2012

I was thinking about this.

If Betty deosn't exist then what's going on with, yeah the audition, but also trying to hide Rita from Coco, arriving at Havenhurst etc.

But maybe we could view everything that Betty and Rita do as being done by Camilla in her schizo/delusional/amnesiac state.

Kind of makes her walking into the audition for the Sylvia North Story and locking eyes with Adam an interesting moment.

But then the Sylvia North Story has already been finished by this point, according to your timeline, purrs. What to make of that?

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Re: Help me piece this puzzle together

Postby purrs » 08 Dec 2012

Ah yes good points on the Betty audition. It was exactly these parts of the movie which led me to my conclusions. I'll elaborate.

Remember now, Betty is the imagination of Camilla. Camilla is practicing with Betty the scene before Betty goes to the audition. Camilla knows this scene by heart, its possible that she was practicing this scene with Diane in the past and reliving the memory with Betty. (Now that I think about it maybe Diane and Camilla were not only lovers but competed with each other knowingly, that could explain a lot.) Camilla is now imagining Betty's audition, and when Betty goes to the 50's movie auditions, she sees Camilla, but instead of imagining herself, the "blond Camilla" is in her place. Just like the photograph of Camilla Rhodes is the blond Camilla in Adam's meeting.

Hmm, I think I might have pieced Adam into this puzzle... Adam's scenes might just be Camilla's dreams. Directors clue's are starting to make sense to me...

I'll think about this more and come back with some more ideas.

All of the people at Camilla's engagement party which is an actual flashback, are in her dreams, her memories of these people. The cowboy is at her party, Adam is at her party, Adam tells the story about his ex-wife and the pool guy at the party, the guy that spits the coffee is at her party. The hotel manager is really the guy in Silencio, a show that Camilla had seen in the past, so hes in her memories. Her mother in law is the manager of the apartments having conversations with Betty. There is that strange woman who comes in the middle of the night saying something is wrong, I wonder if we can find her in the movie. Am I on to something here?

Just thought of something else, Camilla doesn't even know that her name is Camilla Rhodes, but she knows the name, and thus "blond Camilla" her lover after Diane in her dreams has her name. This is so cool I think I'm totally figuring out this movie, going to go watch it again.

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Re: Help me piece this puzzle together

Postby purrs » 08 Dec 2012

Okay, let me know what you think of all of this:

Camilla see's Object::Camilla dream's Object
Orange Flower::Orange Flower Pot (As Betty Enters Sunset Blvd Apartments from the Airport)
Diane with Background::Betty with same Background
Adam's Mother CoCo::Mrs. Lenoit CoCo
Guest at Party::Espresso Brother
Camilla's Lover::"Blonde Camilla"
Club Silencio Red Suit Man::Cookie
Cowboy at Party::Cowboy

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... C1Bck1GYnc


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