The fatal flaw in the classical theory

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Xav
 
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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby Xav » 15 Jul 2012

Unfortunately IMDB's time-maintenance has deleted my theory, but in the meantime I've built my own website (many parts are still under construction; mainpage can be found at http://www.xaverius-empire.comze.com).

Anyway, "Diane's true story" is now at: http://www.xaverius-empire.comze.com/mul/mulhollanddr.html

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby beck » 15 Jul 2012

Xav,

Thanks for posting, and excellent write-up.

I've always felt that there were two intended layers to this film purposely put in by Lynch -- the more obvious dream / reality two parts, ie., the classical theory, which Shaw's essay seems to nail, and a more obtuse secondary deeper plot line that was much more hidden.

My thinking to the deeper plot line was always centered around the so called 'reality' scenes, which didn't strike me as believable.., more like a first set of fantasies or dreams, that the later set (the majority of the movie) were potentially derived from....

In any case, that deeper plot always escaped my (other than my suspicions about the LL being Diane's lover), so your write up is serving as an great foundation to take another look at this film from a whole new perspective.....

So I'm be doing some noodling and scrutinizing to see if it holds up..., there are a couple obvious conflicts that jump out but reserving judgment til I do some further in-depth cogitations.

Thanks again for posting and let me know if your still 100% behind this version or have any updates upon further analysis.

Beck

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby kmkmiller » 15 Jul 2012

Good stuff. Just one thing, it's Mr. Roque with a Q, not a G.

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby beck » 16 Jul 2012

Did some research and noodling on Xav's 'possible reconstruction of Diane's true story'.

In support of a real corpse in the Sierra Bonita apts. theory -- in all 'flashbacks' showing the body/corpse on the bed, it's a smaller room w/ the window on the side, which indicates 2nd bedroom on other side of hall --- AND notice when 'Betty' first walks through the Havenhurst apartment, (before finding 'Rita'), she walks down the hall, notices the room farther down the hall on the right, looks at it, then turns around and goes into the master on the left. The room is never brought up again at Havenhurst, or at Sierra Bonita.

In contrast, in the real life wake-up scene when the door knocking, Diane wakes up in the master on the left side of the hall, with the window on the side of the bed backboard, not adajent to it.., so there seems to be an effort to delineate the two rooms, pointing to incidents in both.....

However, on the apt #17 / #16 theory -- it looks clear all scenes w/ Diane (real and flashbacked / dreamed) are in #17. We know this because it's the last apartment, on the end, and in the last scenes including the final one, the door is always in the same place and the window is on the far wall - as only it could be if she's in the last / end apartment. (Note: as maybe pointed out in your analysis, the office Ed occupies where he's assasinated in the office building is on the end also...).

I do find it curious that #16 is Gonzales -- since Rita has some much Spanish to her, the connection to Gonzales is hard to ignore. In your writeup (if I recall correctly), Gonzales is the lover / DeRosa the one that's killed. Why not Gonzales being 'Rhodes' ?

There are many great points in your analysis..., more to contemplate but wanted to get this down for any and all to weigh in on....

Beck

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby kmkmiller » 16 Jul 2012

I hope it's ok to post this here, as it might be promoting my own blog. But it's comprehensive notes charting MULHOLLAND DRIVE as Diane Selwyn's spiritual journey through Buddhist bardo and ultimate re-incarnation. The after-life theory but with much more scene by scene evidence to support that theory. Some of the stuff I got from reading the theories from people on this excellent website. But some nuggets I found too myself. Like the owls on Mr. Roques tie.

http://kmkmiller.blogspot.com/2012/07/n ... dream.html

Also, if the reader happens to enjoy the TV Show LOST, there's some fun tie ins.

If this does constitute promoting my own blog, please feel free to delete. And I can submit some input directly into the forum later on.

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby ctyankee » 16 Jul 2012

beck wrote:However, on the apt #17 / #16 theory -- it looks clear all scenes w/ Diane (real and flashbacked / dreamed) are in #17. We know this because it's the last apartment, on the end, and in the last scenes including the final one, the door is always in the same place and the window is on the far wall - as only it could be if she's in the last / end apartment. (Note: as maybe pointed out in your analysis, the office Ed occupies where he's assasinated in the office building is on the end also...).
Beck


Possibly, but I don't know if there is enough to hang one's hat on for the following reasons:

1. Building your logic based on that a window in a certain place means that it has to be in the last/end apartment ... just not enough information about the courtyard and apartment to substantiate that finding.

2. Building logic on dreams is ... at best suspect. It's only as good as the credibility of the dreamer and ... ultimately how are we to know? How reliable are dreamers? Therefore how reliable is any logic based on dreamers?

Just to build on this a bit more. Take Diane's death dream/fantasy chased by the Old Couple. As mentioned at the MD website, the headboard is different from before. Even during the same scene ... things change. The lamp above the drawer she gets the gun from goes from a normal size lamp to one that is HUGE, seconds later as smoke fills the room. Also, and I'm not sure that this is mentioned on the website but should be ... the ceiling goes to something like 10 feet or more ... this is no apartment complex ceiling height anymore but a ceiling for a very fancy mansion.

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby kmkmiller » 16 Jul 2012

Just to weigh in on the #16/#17 discussion. In the dream, when Rita and Betty enter #17, there is a dead plant next to the front door.

Later, when Diane wakes up, there is a shelf there.

That said, the layout of the exterior windows would suggest that Diane wakes up in #17, not #16.

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby Xav » 16 Jul 2012

beck wrote:I do find it curious that #16 is Gonzales -- since Rita has some much Spanish to her, the connection to Gonzales is hard to ignore. In your writeup (if I recall correctly), Gonzales is the lover / DeRosa the one that's killed. Why not Gonzales being 'Rhodes' ?

There are many great points in your analysis..., more to contemplate but wanted to get this down for any and all to weigh in on....


Thanks for reading my 'stuff'. According my understanding (personal view) 16, and 12 are the numbers Diane swaps in her dream, and that makes #12 Gonzalez, #16 D Selwyn and #17 LJ DeRosa. DeRosa is/was Diane's lover, who now is found dead at #17.

It echos 1612 Havenhurst, and works analogous to 911 and 119 on the fire-truck. Also at the time Kenny struck Lorraine to the floor, Adam was hiding in #16 of the Park Hotel. Additionally Joe orchestrated 'Joe's suicide' in Ed's office at the far end, whereas the fat lady resided in the adjacent 'boxed up' office.

Of course this is not solid ground, but a best guess derived from Diane's dream.

BTW I do not get what you mean by the 'window exterior'.

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby beck » 16 Jul 2012

Also, under the heading of noteworthy uses of the #16.., how about the song at the audition: '16 Reasons.....'

The End Apt Window Concept: In the Sierra Bonita 'West' Courtyard, the apts are side by side.., we see that when walking down from #12 to #17 in dream sequence (I know, reliability issue.., ) so the only windows for the internal apts will be the front (kitchen / master) and back (2nd bedroom, maybe on 'fireplace' wall in #17), but not on the end side of the apt. except for the end unit (ie., when you enter #17, on the right wall). That window physically couldn't be there in #16 or #12 - assuming the are joined at the sides, which I think is a fair assumption to make.....

Since they make a point to say Apt 17, down there on the end, I think a fair conclusion is apartment 17 is on the end, and both 'dream' sequence and 'flashback' sequences, plus the real scene when she wakes w/ doorbell, show the window....

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby beck » 16 Jul 2012

kmkmiller wrote:I hope it's ok to post this here, as it might be promoting my own blog. But it's comprehensive notes charting MULHOLLAND DRIVE as Diane Selwyn's spiritual journey through Buddhist bardo and ultimate re-incarnation. The after-life theory but with much more scene by scene evidence to support that theory. Some of the stuff I got from reading the theories from people on this excellent website. But some nuggets I found too myself. Like the owls on Mr. Roques tie.

http://kmkmiller.blogspot.com/2012/07/n ... dream.html

KmKmiller - great stuff.., just got to 'lamp shadow on window shade' reference.., excellent.., continuing....

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby Xav » 17 Jul 2012

Maybe I'm getting confused and disoriented. Anyhow this is a great map, and as far as I know everything looks fine in Diane's apartment. Both kitchen and living have windows at the left side, so ... ???



Image

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby beck » 17 Jul 2012

OK. Not sure I agree w/ the bedroom layout, but no matter ... here's my only point.

Logically, apt #16 is next to this apt #17, on the right. Assuming #16 is the same relative layout, the left wall of #16, the equivalent to the left wall on this layout, could not have a window. It shares a solid wall that's on the right side of the bedroom and bathroom above.

On this layout there is a window on the left wall.

So the deduction is the scenes with the LL, and flashbacks with Camilla, are in apt. #17, the end apartment -- not in #16 or #12. That's my only point.....

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby ctyankee » 17 Jul 2012

beck wrote: That window physically couldn't be there in #16 or #12 - assuming the are joined at the sides, which I think is a fair assumption to make.....


Why? #12 looks to have open air to its left ... beyond that with a lot of close-up's from Lynch we don't see the full outline of any of the apartments and with plants/hedges or what have you that the girls pass ... no idea whether the apartments are free standing or not.

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby kmkmiller » 17 Jul 2012

So went back and took a look. The apt they pass, the camera pans over to it and the bird of paradise flower nods to it. That apt has a screen enclosure around the front door landing. Apt 17 does not.

Then when Diane wakes up, woman in 12 is getting her stuff, you can see out the front door and there is no screen enclosure. But there is the bird of paradise.

Apt 12 has a nice airy look, windows with curtains not shades.

What do I make of this. Diane wakes up in 17 and there's a bird of paradise outside 17 too. There's actually a lot of these bird of paradise flowers thoughout the courtyard..

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby kmkmiller » 18 Jul 2012

Hey, realizing I'm sort of spamming the forum these days, but I can't get MD out of my head for the time being.

Should this be a different topic? Figured I'd just post it here as it appears to be the most active thread.

Crazy idea about the Dinner Party Scene. Sylvia North Story is TWIN PEAKS.

Sylvia North story, Sylvan North is wooded north, TWIN PEAKS is the Sylvia North Story.

So Camilla says she never went to Casablanca with Luigi. Casablanca is a great movie but you can also say it's "white house." What white house is in TWIN PEAKS? The White Lodge.


So to re-write the scene after breaking the code:

Coco: How did you meet Camilla?
Diane: On TWIN PEAKS.
Wilkins: Camilla was great in that.
Camilla: I was never in the white lodge with Luigi.
Unknown: What a pity!
Adam: So what?

So now it's not a non-sequitur.

With that in mind, the dialog from the Sylvia North story, you can imagine Laura might be talking to KILLER BOB in that scene.

I was also watching Wild At Heart the other night and in Wild At Heart Bobby Peru seduces Lula in this ultra close up lecherous scene that resembles Betty's audition.

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