The fatal flaw in the classical theory

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woolfspersona
 
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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby woolfspersona » 07 Mar 2013

Haha Siku :) I actually do have a doppelganger lady who still lives in L.A. who looks a ridiculously lot like me, but we both go to different colleges now. And certainly cheers -- we loons are few in numbers!

Is it generally agreed on here though that some characters in any story can be symbols of another character without necessarily being that character? For example, I'm taking a herpetology class right now. Lissamphibians are often also called amphibians, and all amphibians are lissamphibians, but not all lissamphibians are amphibians. I feel like Camilla would be the lissamphibian and Carol the amphibian. "Don't you forget, I'm the girl that's playing this part" is probably a reference to Camilla's amnesia. Sorry, I haven't slept in two days studying for that herpetology lab exam and can't get it off my mind!

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Siku
 
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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby Siku » 07 Mar 2013

Excellent, you have a doppelganger in LA, of all places? It just get's better and better!

woolfspersona wrote:I feel like Camilla would be the lissamphibian and Carol the amphibian. "Don't you forget, I'm the girl that's playing this part" is probably a reference to Camilla's amnesia.


This is a really good observation: Carol speaks of forgetfulness. And of course Rita IS playing a part: She's playing 'Rita', a character inspired by the Gilda posted in Havenhurst.

And Diane HAS forgotten. She's forgotten that Carol is the girl that's playing the part of Camilla, Diane's fantasy lover. Diane is in the process of RECASTING the lead actress, and it's bugging Diane DAY and NIGHT.

I'll link this to the Carol thread. Or you can - it will make me seem less obsessive if you do it. ;-)

Carolism is the future.

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Erniesam
 
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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby Erniesam » 02 Nov 2013

When the classical theory indeed states that Diane orders a hit on Camilla, than I have to reject this theory entirely. Because we see Diane not ordering a hit on Camilla but on Camilla Rhodes! This proves that Camilla in the fantasy sequence is indeed a fantasy.

We see on the photo an image of Camilla Rhodes, but see only the name Camilla beneath it, because the camera does not capture her last name: Rhodes. But this scene is still fantasy, so in reality the whole name would be: Camilla Rhodes. And she is the girl who played the part in The Sylvia North Story.

Rita and Camilla are purely metaphorical and symbolise respectively the wish of Diane to make it in Hollywood and the real experience of her in Hollywood. The end result of Rita and Camilla is Camilla Rhodes who is a metaphor for the REAL Hollywood.

The Betty look-a-like Camilla Rhodes and Carol in the dream are the physical transition from Betty to the real Camilla Rhodes. Carol says: "Remember, I'm the girl who's playing this part" and so she is!

A third connection is that between the lover of Diane in real life and her relationship with Rita and Camilla. Her portayal of her relationship with Hollywood Diane takes from her real life experience with her lover, because these two relationships are similar in that they started out promising, but ended up badly.

Well, that's the way I see it at least.

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Siku
 
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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby Siku » 02 Nov 2013

How many Camillas do you have Erniesam?

The classical theory has two, blonde and brunette. The blonde (Mellisa George) is Camilla Rhodes in the dream, unnamed in reality. The Brunette (Laura Harring) is Rita in the dream and Camilla Rhodes in reality. The classical theory says the hit is on the brunette Camilla Rhodes and is in reality.

So your comment
Erniesam wrote:When the classical theory indeed states that Diane orders a hit on Camilla, than I have to reject this theory entirely. Because we see Diane not ordering a hit on Camilla but on Camilla Rhodes! This proves that Camilla in the fantasy sequence is indeed a fantasy.

doesn't make sense to me. ???

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Erniesam
 
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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby Erniesam » 02 Nov 2013

Well, in fact there are indeed two Camilla's: Camilla Rhodes and Camilla, the lover of Diane in her fantasy.

When we look at the picture that Diane gives to the hitman, we see a picture of Melissa George with dark hair. We only see the name Camilla and not the last name. Because this is a resume, there has to be a last name written on it, but Lynch does not let us see it. The only name that we have heard being attached to Camilla is Rhodes. So the hit is on Camilla Rhodes.

But this scene is fantasy, so it could be that Camilla (the lover of Diane) is indeed Rhodes. The picture in this scene would than still be a suppression of the real Camilla.

But...it can also be that Camilla and Camilla Rhodes are indeed one and the same person! Diane has split her up to represent the physical Camilla (Melissa George) and the metaphorical image of her dream to make it in Hollywood and her actual experience in the form of Rita and Camilla.

So that would mean that Camilla and Camilla Rhodes are one, which is symbolised by the kiss at the party.

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Erniesam
 
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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby Erniesam » 02 Nov 2013

Nope, my mistake. I believe that it is indeed Laura Elena Harring on the picture that Diane gives to the hitman, though I'm not completely sure. Her hairdo is different than we have seen, of course.

So, Diane imagines herself in the place of Camilla through the physical appearance of the blonde Camilla Rhodes and the scenes with Rita and the dark Camilla have to be seen metaphorically. And the real Camilla Rhodes is a mixture of the blonde and the dark Camilla.

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Siku
 
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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby Siku » 03 Nov 2013

Erniesam wrote:Well, in fact there are indeed two Camilla's: Camilla Rhodes and Camilla, the lover of Diane in her fantasy.


No, there's just one brunette Camilla.

You can see it's Laura Harring and also the name Rhodes here:

Photo Resume.png


And the name Camilla here:

Close up 1.png

Whether this character is real or fantasy is open to debate. But I see no evidence or theory suggesting there's two of her.

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Erniesam
 
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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby Erniesam » 03 Nov 2013

Indeed we can distract the full name from the photo, but when the camera shows us the picture in the movie, we only get to see Camilla and my guess is that's significant; it's Lynch telling us that the Camilla Rhodes in the dream and Camilla, the lover of Diane in the fantasy, are one and the same and their connection is their first name!

Sure, there's only one brunette Camilla, but as you'll notice we see that the haircut of Rita and Camilla are alike, but the one Camilla Rhodes got on this picture is different.

Furthermore, both Rita and Camilla are wearing only black, while Camilla on the picture wears a white dress. When the girl on the party (played by the same actress as the Camilla Rhodes in the dream, Melissa George, kisses Camilla she passes this dress on to her to symbolise their melting together. You'll notice that this dress is high cut. This matches the persona of this girl, while Diane pictures this girl as a stand in for Betty and she is very innocent and sexually pure. The dress Camilla is wearing on the picture is very low cut, which suggests that she indeed used her impressive busom and sexual appeal as a tool to get higher up in Hollywood. So, she uses sex as a tool to make it in Hollywood, while in the case of Diane it is sex that has caused her failure in Hollywood, because the sexual abuse has damaged her self esteem and caused her not being able to give and receive love in a healthy manner. How ironic is that?

It is indeed Camilla on the picture, because she represents the physical representation of the real Camilla Rhodes, while Melissa George represents the literal one, because she wears the complete name. So, the physical representation of Camilla and the name of Camilla Rhodes merged together produce the real Camilla Rhodes.

There are alot more connections to be found and to be discussed, but for now I'll leave it with these to establish my vision of Camilla and Camilla Rhodes in dream being one. There are also definite arguments agaist the notion, that the order to murder Camilla takes or took place in real time, but this is not the place to go into that. Well, at least I see them as definite, but others may have other opinions, of course.

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Re: The fatal flaw in the classical theory

Postby Erniesam » 06 Nov 2013

At the time I'm writing this, I've just finished my analysis of MD, which I've typed down. At this time I have to say I definitely believe that the murder of Camilla Rhodes has to be seen metaphorically. Some might say that that would just be an easy way out to explain the whole thing, but I beg to differ with that notion.

You see, I've always had trouble to believe that Diane realy ordered the hit on Camilla. Somehow it didn't fit the pattern of the movie nor the personality of Diane. Above all, within the context of the plot it realy doesn't make sense. When you take it as a metaphor, it fits perfectly. It's not easy to explain the whole premisse of how this metaphor fits perfectly and the murder as a real occurrence does not. It took me about 112 pages to express my thoughts clearly and to build my argument.

So, I have to reject the classical theory almost entirely. There are certain points and elements therein that hold up perfectly, but when it holds the murder as being a true event, than all the consequences derived there off make no sense to me. When people are interested in my arguments I'll be happy to try to write them down as clear as I can put them in to words. If not, that's okay too.

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