Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

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vicster111
 
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Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby vicster111 » 09 Nov 2010

We've all come to the conclusion that Diane is obsessed with Camilla. But is that really the case?

What do we see in 'part 2' of the film.

- Camilla is at Diane's house and it's probably during this event that Diane decides she no longer wants to see Camilla
- Camilla comes to Diane's door, but Diane shuts the door in her face
- Camilla calls Diane and the way Diane says "Camilla..." doesn't sound like happiness to hear from her
- Camilla tries seducing Diane over the phone ("Are you coming? Gooood.") and informs her that she has a car waiting for her...and it's been waiting (she wants to 'drive her wild')
- Camilla interrupts Diane's limo journey to 'wherever' (it may be symbolic of interrupting Diane's road to success) and brings her to a place where she symbolically 'destroys' her

Did Diane switch apartments with her neighbor because she's trying to hide from Camilla? Camilla won't leave her alone?

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Re: Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby marksman » 09 Nov 2010

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Re: Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby ctyankee » 09 Nov 2010

vicster111 wrote:Did Diane switch apartments with her neighbor because she's trying to hide from Camilla? Camilla won't leave her alone?


So, the party scene represents what to you? Reality? Fantasy? (if so whose?) Dream? If so, whose?

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Re: Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby vicster111 » 09 Nov 2010

ctyankee wrote:
vicster111 wrote:Did Diane switch apartments with her neighbor because she's trying to hide from Camilla? Camilla won't leave her alone?


So, the party scene represents what to you? Reality? Fantasy? (if so whose?) Dream? If so, whose?


While pondering your question I came to greater understanding as to what this film is.

The party scene is none of the above. It is simply symbolic of Camilla destroying Diane, using Diane's love for her as a vice.

The keys are the key to understanding this film.

- The key we see in the first part of the movie has a moon on it and it indicates dreaming
- The key in the second half of the film is a straight up key

David Lynch is telling us a story. In the first half of the film, the story is being told with dream symbolism. The second half of the film is being told to us with straight up symbolism.

The corpse is an indication, to us, that the use of dream symbolism is ending.

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Re: Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby dk23 » 09 Nov 2010

marksman wrote:
vicster111 wrote:
Did Diane switch apartments with her neighbor because she's trying to hide from Camilla? Camilla won't leave her alone?


I completely agree with that bit.


How could this be if Camilla is shown in the same apartment that Diane wakes up in? She's never shown in any other one.

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Re: Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby vicster111 » 09 Nov 2010

dk23 wrote:How could this be if Camilla is shown in the same apartment that Diane wakes up in? She's never shown in any other one.


I see what you're saying...hmmm. So that doesn't appear to be a reason why she switched apartments.

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Re: Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby marksman » 09 Nov 2010

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Re: Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby vicster111 » 09 Nov 2010

I do have a theory on the apartment switch though.

Diane lived in No. 12, a one-bedroom. The neighbor lived in 16, a two-bedroom. Diane and the neighbor were friends. The neighbor took on a new roommate after her old one moved out. The new roommate was Camilla. The old roommate's name was Gonzalez. The neighbor's name is Sylvia North. Diane and Camilla 'clicked' and wanted to be roommates, so Diane switched with Sylvia.

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Re: Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby vicster111 » 09 Nov 2010

Someone asked me Are you also saying the film contains no scenes of actually reality?

Yes. Everything is being told to us, by David Lynch, through 2 types of symbolism.

The head falling to the pillow is DL telling us that we are to interpret what follows using dream symbolism. He reminds us of this when he shows us the moon key...just in case we forgot (like we did in Club Silencio when Rebecca came out). The corpse tells us that the use of dream symbolism will no longer be used. We are shown a regular blue key soon after. This tells us that the use of regular symbolism is how we are to interpret this part of the film. And he shows the key to us again, at Winkies, just in case we forgot.

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Re: Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby vicster111 » 09 Nov 2010

Everything is being told to us, by David Lynch, through 2 types of symbolism.


I take that back. There are 3 types. When we see Diane go to the bed and shoot herself, that is the end of the regular symbolism and another type is being used from this point forward.

The scenes with the bed are switches from one type of symbolism to another.

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Re: Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby ctyankee » 09 Nov 2010

vicster111 wrote:
ctyankee wrote:
vicster111 wrote:Did Diane switch apartments with her neighbor because she's trying to hide from Camilla? Camilla won't leave her alone?


So, the party scene represents what to you? Reality? Fantasy? (if so whose?) Dream? If so, whose?


While pondering your question I came to greater understanding as to what this film is.

The party scene is none of the above. It is simply symbolic of Camilla destroying Diane, using Diane's love for her as a vice.

The keys are the key to understanding this film.

- The key we see in the first part of the movie has a moon on it and it indicates dreaming
- The key in the second half of the film is a straight up key

David Lynch is telling us a story. In the first half of the film, the story is being told with dream symbolism. The second half of the film is being told to us with straight up symbolism.

The corpse is an indication, to us, that the use of dream symbolism is ending.


I think you are forgetting that the somewhat crescent shaped head of the key is also shown after the Club Silencio scene when Betty and Diane are back at the apartment. Which is fine, but that just puts it back to the timeframe where the dream ends with Diane waking up -- which just makes it the classic dream segment anyway.

There is nothing at all wrong with suggesting that the party scene is not a dream, reality or fantasy but simply a filmmaker telling us a story with a big BUT ... that but becomes that if so, there is absolutely no point in any theory about theories as to what characters are dreaming or fantasizing and when as it is no more complicated than it all being the director's story. That's quite the slippery slope.

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Re: Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby vicster111 » 10 Nov 2010

ctyankee wrote:I think you are forgetting that the somewhat crescent shaped head of the key is also shown after the Club Silencio scene when Betty and Diane are back at the apartment. Which is fine, but that just puts it back to the timeframe where the dream ends with Diane waking up -- which just makes it the classic dream segment anyway.

There is nothing at all wrong with suggesting that the party scene is not a dream, reality or fantasy but simply a filmmaker telling us a story with a big BUT ... that but becomes that if so, there is absolutely no point in any theory about theories as to what characters are dreaming or fantasizing and when as it is no more complicated than it all being the director's story. That's quite the slippery slope.


Our seeing the crescent shaped key is just another reminder of the type of symbolism. The dream symbolism does not end until we see the Cowboy shut the door on the corpse. Diane's rising from bed is the beginning of the different type of symbolism which will apply from this point on. Her rising from bed tells us that a new type of symbolism is now being used. The key tells us which kind.

As far as the mystery of who's dreaming what and who's fantasizing that...yeah, it's kinda disappointing that it doesn't apply. But what does make this film fun, now, is trying to figure out what story DL is telling us through this symbolism.
*************

It's probably going to take me while to figure out what story David Lynch is telling us through this dream symbolism in the first part of the film. I have a pretty good (general) grasp (I think) of what we are being told in the second half of the film, but I want to give it more thought.

What I do think DL tells us in the very first scene, the car accident, is that Laura Harring's character was not a successful movie star. She got sidetracked/interrupted on her road to success and found herself on the streets of Hollywood. She became a prostitute, possibly.

The scene with Dan symbolizes something but I don't know if it is fear, death, evil, etc. 'around the corner'.

Maybe it shows us that Camilla realizes that this lifestyle will be the end of her.

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Re: Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby ctyankee » 10 Nov 2010

vicster111 wrote:
ctyankee wrote:I think you are forgetting that the somewhat crescent shaped head of the key is also shown after the Club Silencio scene when Betty and Diane are back at the apartment. Which is fine, but that just puts it back to the timeframe where the dream ends with Diane waking up -- which just makes it the classic dream segment anyway.

There is nothing at all wrong with suggesting that the party scene is not a dream, reality or fantasy but simply a filmmaker telling us a story with a big BUT ... that but becomes that if so, there is absolutely no point in any theory about theories as to what characters are dreaming or fantasizing and when as it is no more complicated than it all being the director's story. That's quite the slippery slope.


Our seeing the crescent shaped key is just another reminder of the type of symbolism. The dream symbolism does not end until we see the Cowboy shut the door on the corpse. Diane's rising from bed is the beginning of the different type of symbolism which will apply from this point on. Her rising from bed tells us that a new type of symbolism is now being used. The key tells us which kind.

As far as the mystery of who's dreaming what and who's fantasizing that...yeah, it's kinda disappointing that it doesn't apply. But what does make this film fun, now, is trying to figure out what story DL is telling us through this symbolism.
*************

It's probably going to take me while to figure out what story David Lynch is telling us through this dream symbolism in the first part of the film. I have a pretty good (general) grasp (I think) of what we are being told in the second half of the film, but I want to give it more thought.

What I do think DL tells us in the very first scene, the car accident, is that Laura Harring's character was not a successful movie star. She got sidetracked/interrupted on her road to success and found herself on the streets of Hollywood. She became a prostitute, possibly.

The scene with Dan symbolizes something but I don't know if it is fear, death, evil, etc. 'around the corner'.

Maybe it shows us that Camilla realizes that this lifestyle will be the end of her.


To recap your theory:

1. First part up to Diane waking up in bed - Lynch Dream Symbolism
2. Second part up to Diane's suicide - Lynch Regular Symbolism
3. Post-death - Undefined Lynch Symbolism

By Lynch "regular symbolism", you suggest that the dinner scene is not a dream, not reality and not a fantasy but simply Lynch symbolism "of Camilla destroying Diane, using Diane's love for her as a vice."

My counter is that if there is no reality or fantasy then there is no dream because there is no dreamer. It simply becomes symbolism where defining one sort of symbolism versus another becomes (excuse the word) nonsense. This unravels in there being no story that can resonate with the viewer other than that of watching a Lynchian story where this is no story just a pretense of one. Do you see what I mean?

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Re: Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby vicster111 » 10 Nov 2010

I guess I'm just not explaining myself very well.

Think of an artist who paints a subject using one style, and then paints the subject again using a different style.

We go and look at this art and try to determine what the subject is.

************

I've been told that I'm 'misusing' the word symbolism. I won't use it any longer. I'm not that educated in the art department and therefore don't know artsy lingo. :)

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Re: Is Diane obsessed with Camilla?

Postby vicster111 » 10 Nov 2010

What I do think DL tells us in the very first scene, the car accident, is that Laura Harring's character was not a successful movie star. She got sidetracked/interrupted on her way to success and found herself on the streets of Hollywood. She became a prostitute, possibly.

The scene with Dan symbolizes something but I don't know if it is fear, death, evil, etc. 'around the corner'.


When we see Laura Harring fearful of the couple walking the sidewalk outside Havenhurst, we are seeing her fearful of the 'street girl' lifestyle. The girl walking with the guy is another street girl and the guy is her client. LH going into the bushes signifies her desire to find refuge.

When she entered Aunt Ruth's apartment, we are seeing LH finding refuge from the lifestyle of turning tricks on the street.

Because we see LH sleeping on each end of the 'Dan' scene, this could be telling us that LH is now safe from the 'danger around the corner' involved in street life.

I think that the red lamp we see at Havenhurst, as Aunt Ruth is leaving, tells us that someone there runs a 'call girl' business.

*******************

I reach these conclusions by 'zooming out' and looking at what's going on in a more general way, instead of 'zooming in' and looking at every single detail. Then I try and interpret what I see.

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