Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

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dk23
 
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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby dk23 » 10 Nov 2010

Diane just may have been a little girl who died in a car crash...

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 10 Nov 2010

marksman wrote:Actually we have a big clue to how Diane first got involved with Camilla immediately before the party. In a particularly dreamy scene we see Diane as a little girl being led along a secret path by Camilla. We see an innocent girl being led along a path, by a blatantly sexual woman.
The dialogue is as follows:
"Short Cut" (Diane looks down and does not want to look Camilla in the eye)
"Come on sweetheart"
"Its beautiful."
"A secret"

And then Camilla takes the child like Diane by the hand, through the undergrowth.


I like how you see this scene. It is yet another example of Camilla seducing her. But in this scene, unlike the phone call scene (where I see Camilla seducing her sexually), she is seducing her with a lifestyle. A call-girl lifestyle. A lifestyle that is NOT beautiful. Like a drug dealer glamorizing drug dealing to an impressionable, innocent 12-year old.

Diane succumbed to this seduction and was destroyed by it.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby marksman » 10 Nov 2010

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby marksman » 10 Nov 2010

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 11 Nov 2010

marksman wrote:But, vicster, I can see the logic of your interpretation of this scene, because it would fit nicely (in chronological order) with the 2 scenes before it and the party immediately following. So in your version we have:

1. Diane nervously answers Camilla's private phone (used mostly for her dealings as a call girl) and finds that it is Camilla, who invites her, for the first time, to join her at one of the "parties".
2. The Limo ride to the party.
3.Being led into prostitution, with suggestions of what a wonderful life it could be.
4. The awkwardness of having to explain to people about how she came to be friends with Camilla, and what she does for a living. This results in her telling lies, to explain her background etc.

(I really like the logic of your idea)

This contrasts with my version, which pays a lot of attention to detail. In mine, things don't run in chronological order, which is OK because we are in dreams, and things get really mixed up in them, even if they are telling us a truth.


Well, I've only really looked at the scenes with the phone call, the limo ride and the walk uphill and came to the following conclusions...which, everyone knows by now, is subject to change. Lol!

1. Diane reluctantly answers Camilla's call. Camilla tries to seduce Diane over the phone and Diane, reluctantly, plays along. Look at how Diane answers the question "Are you coming?". When Camilla says "...the car is waiting...it's been waiting..." she not talking, literally, about there actually being a car out in the parking lot waiting. She is the car and she wants Diane to 'drive her wild'.

(While I think about this, this gives a whole new meaning to what the Cowboy says when he tells Adam that there can only be one driver of a buggy)

2. Diane's limo ride up Mulholland Drive is symbolic of her being on the road to success. This ride is interrupted by Camilla.

3. Camilla leading Diane up the path after calling her 'sweetheart' and telling her it's beautiful, it's a secret, etc., is just another seduction by Camilla that niave, innocent Diane falls for. She just can't seem to resist her. And notice that when they reach the top, they are actually entering through the 'back door'. This seduction is leading Diane to a dangerous, dirty, secretive lifestyle that eventually destroys poor innocent Diane.

I like your idea of [i]why[/i[ she lies at this party. :) It makes perfect sense.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 18 Nov 2010

Something else I'd like to pose...

When we hear Camilla, at the party, talk about Luigi we don't actually see her say it...and it sounds dubbed in. We also don't see the guest when they make their comment. The only person we actually see and hear speak is Adam.

Remove Camilla's comment and the party guest's response...keep only Adam's line. And listen again.

Is Adam basically saying "Who cares?" in regards to Diane's rendition of her life story?

Now, why would he say that? Is it because Diane is just a servant and not part of the party? She's not important and not in the 'click'? Is he being extremely rude, saying it in spanish so that Diane would not know what he said? He does have a big, fat smirk on his face. And maybe she understands spanish a lot better than he thinks...

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby ctyankee » 18 Nov 2010

vicster111 wrote:Something else I'd like to pose...

When we hear Camilla, at the party, talk about Luigi we don't actually see her say it...and it sounds dubbed in. We also don't see the guest when they make their comment. The only person we actually see and hear speak is Adam.

Remove Camilla's comment and the party guest's response...keep only Adam's line. And listen again.

Is Adam basically saying "Who cares?" in regards to Diane's rendition of her life story?

Now, why would he say that? Is it because Diane is just a servant and not part of the party? She's not important and not in the 'click'? Is he being extremely rude, saying it in spanish so that Diane would not know what he said? He does have a big, fat smirk on his face. And maybe she understands spanish a lot better than he thinks...


Ignore this, ignore that, this means this and that means that!

Forgive my Dr. Seuss type rhyme. But where is the balance?

So we are to ignore to answer your questions?

1. Diane is not in the conversation.
2. Camilla's harsh look at the speaker across from her.
3. What Camilla says.
3. Adam's eye contact with someone across from him not at Diane.
4. That there are several interpretations to what Adam says beyond the one you decided to mention.

Lynch is also a painter - to you think he would suggest ignoring some of what he painted?

My challenge/questions to you are the following (which, naturally you can choose to ignore). What are all the possibilities that Lynch decided to dub off-screen? What are all the possibilities of why there is dialog that even native Spanish speaking fans have struggled to even agree upon what the words are, let alone what the words mean?

Summon your inner-Sherlock Holmes.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 18 Nov 2010

So, I've graduated from 'non-sense' to 'Dr. Seuss'. In the future, I think I'll post where I'm given a little more respect. Which is sad, because I was happy to be here. And just so you know, I'm the second person who's been 'chased off'.

But for those who may be genuinely interested in my response:

1. If Adam's comment is a one-liner and there was nothing said by Camilla or the guest before-hand, then there is no conversation for Diane to be in. I think the fact that Camilla sounds dubbed and that the two comments are not witnessed being said is a pretty good indicator that they weren't said...that Diane (who actually understands spanish perfectly) inserted these two lines as she recollected this event.

2. Camilla's 'harsh look' may actually be a 'Thank you, dahling' response to a compliment that was just given to her by Wilkins. ("Camilla was great in that.")

3. Adam will not look at Diane when he makes the snide comment. He's not gonna want her to know that he's 'picking on' her...that's why he says it in spanish. If you're in a restaurant and your waitress, who is horrible, is standing right there will you say "Man, she's terrible!" (in spanish) to the person sitting across from you or will you say it to the waitress?

4. Yes, that comment by Adam has several interpretations. "Who cares" is one of them.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby marksman » 18 Nov 2010

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 18 Nov 2010

I sometimes wonder if, when we hear the 'love song', the scenes that contain it are the only 'real' scenes. Meaning they are the only ones that are shown without any manipulation on Diane's part.

Also, regarding Adam, remember that he was reprimanded by Cowboy for being a smart aleck and to have the right attitude.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 18 Nov 2010

"Ah, Perfect timing."

That line always struck me funny, too. Like it was 'inserted'.


And I remember, at one time, thinking that Diane was projecting the image of Camilla onto other women (girlfriends? the neighbor?). And that these other woman were aware that she was doing it. What gave me this impression was when Camilla said "You drive me wild" and then immediately said "We shouldn't do this anymore". "You drive me wild" is part of the role playing game. I think the "We shouldn't do this anymore" comment was directly related to her (unknown woman) no longer wanting to 'pretend to be someone else' (Camilla). This unknown woman sees that this charade she and Diane are playing is getting dangerous (You're playing a dangerous game here) because she realizes Diane is coming unhinged.

And this is why I believe Diane killed her. The hitman thing is made up (or just misinterpreted by us). The 'blond in bed' is this 'unknown woman' that Diane has killed. Where did this unknown woman come from, possibly? Joe? Diane showed Joe a picture of her obsession (Camilla) and asked him to find someone who looked like her? Joe couldn't find a brunette so he sent Laney over there in a wig?

I talked about 'blue screen' usage in another thread here. I think this is a clue that Diane is 'projecting' Camilla onto others. Maybe, because she is becoming seriously unhinged, she is projecting Camilla when there is no one to project her on. She's projecting her onto things, not just people. She sees Camilla in her kitchen for a few seconds. Camilla doesn't speak. If you could 'see through' Camilla at that moment, you would find a broom with a blue handle behind her. When Diane realizes that she just projected Camilla onto a broom handle, she's horrified. Look at her!

Well, anyway, it's an idea...lol!

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 18 Nov 2010

Okay, another brain storm. Who's recasting the lead role? Diane. Who's really the director? Diane. Who's the casting agent? Joe.

Joe brings Diane a blonde (Laney) - her new Camilla Rhodes. Diane wants a brunette. She rejects her. Joe tells her to deal with...stick a wig on her. "A man's attitude goes a long way"

Adam is shown a blonde and told that her name is Camilla Rhodes. He rejects her. He's basically told "Too bad" and to have the right attitude.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby blu » 19 Nov 2010

vicster111 wrote:So, I've graduated from 'non-sense' to 'Dr. Seuss'. In the future, I think I'll post where I'm given a little more respect. Which is sad, because I was happy to be here. And just so you know, I'm the second person who's been 'chased off'.

vic, it's very early days for this forum, this is a new space to scribble in, and I don't want people to feel chased off at all. That sucks. :-(

Your enthusiasm is very welcome here. Enthusiasm is always welcome. It seems that you like to post as you think and come up with ideas in a stream of consciousness kinda way, and there is nothing wrong with that at all. In fact there is a lot to be admired in it. I would hope that we can foster a good atmosphere here for constructive discussion, but what 'constructive' does mean is that you may be challenged on some ideas that you have. As may I. As may anyone. Getting deeper into this film is the name of the game, and if no ideas were challenged we may stall on that job of getting deeper.

We have to be alive to the fact that anyone can float in here and make an account and criticise or otherwise any post they care to. That's no different to anywhere else on the net. Except if it gets personal here then the perpetrator will get flattened. Fast.

Now. ctyankee was (and is in general) quite direct in challenging some things that you posted. But I don't think he was disrespectful towards you personally. He may have been a little terse and borderline snarky, but if you look at some of the questions that he asked in his post, he was - I think - believe it or not, actually trying to be helpful.

ctyankee wrote:My challenge/questions to you are the following (which, naturally you can choose to ignore). What are all the possibilities that Lynch decided to dub off-screen? What are all the possibilities of why there is dialog that even native Spanish speaking fans have struggled to even agree upon what the words are, let alone what the words mean?

Those are good questions that are worth thinking about.

If you (or anyone else) wants to pick up my challenge from the other thread about picking a scene, the dinner party might actually be a pretty good thing to do.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 19 Nov 2010

What are all the possibilities that Lynch decided to dub off-screen?

That is very possible. But if we know Lynch the way we think we do, the difference in sound between the dub and the rest of the dialogue would not have been acceptable to him. He puts too much emphasis on sound in his films to let this obvious dub stay as an obvious dub (he would have tweeked it to blend better) unless it served a purpose and was meant to sound as an obvious dub.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 19 Nov 2010

And I just remembered something else. (Boy I need to get to bed. Lol!) At the moment Camilla, supposedly, begins to speak, the background music suddenly changes mid-tune to another tune. This tune change, to me, is almost as dramatic as the dishes we hear breaking at the end of the party. This new tune that plays is more upbeat, happy and bubbly. If we remember that Diane is recalling this moment, and has chosen the background music that's playing in her recollections, then we realize that it is Diane who suddenly changed the tune at that particular moment. She changes it to something more bubbly to lift her mood as she reinvents the scene, a scene where Adam picked on her, to be a more palatable, completely innocent scene by adding Camilla and the guest's comments. Their comments are why Adam said what he said...it wasn't about her. Nothing bad happened here.

She's fooling herself. Trying to, anyway.

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