Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

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vicster111
 
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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 05 Nov 2010

For those of you who are not familiar with my posts on the IMDb board, I like to post as I come up with ideas. So, you'll see my thought process in action. Lol!

Let me keep going...

The blue key and the box. The blue box represents Camilla and Adam's house and the blue key is the key to their home.

Diane has started to resent Camilla for being so 'needy', but at the same time, she has grown to depend on caring for Camilla. Caring for Camilla has become her whole world...her new drug. She makes 'advances' to Camilla (because she thinks she's in love with her - confusing love with dependency) and these advances begin to make Camilla uneasy. Eventually it gets to the point where Diane is asked not to come back (Camilla took Coco's advice) and to turn in her key.

The Woman in #12 is Diane's replacement (switching apartments) as assistant. Woman in #12's appearance at Diane's door to get her 'stuff' really represents the 'Woman in #12' getting the key from Diane.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 05 Nov 2010

Maybe the 'blackmail' we hear about during the audition is what Diane hires Joe to assist her with. Blackmailing Camilla into giving Diane her job back. It would serve, if it worked, to get Diane the key back.

About the jitterbug contest she says she won: I believe the jitterbug contest is a lie. Why? Because when she visualizes herself winning this contest, at the beginning of the film (and, notice she's not asleep yet), she is alone. There's no dance partner sharing the spotlight with her.

Does Irene and her companion represent 'lies and deceit'? If so, look who shares that spotlight with her and what that would mean. It's a lie, along with 'Betty'. Who brings Betty out of LAX?

Do the 'two detectives' looking for Diane represent the lies and deceit catching up to her? And finally causing her demise? She couldn't hide from them or keep them away from her...they just shrunk and went under the door.

*********

Keeping in mind Irene and her companion representing 'lies and deceit', notice how Irene is wearing purple during that jitterbug fantasy. Does this mean that the color purple represents these as well? Back at LAX, not only did these two escort 'Betty' out of the airport, but we saw an older lady dressed in all purple. And does this maybe tell us that Diane did not arrive in Hollywood via an airplane?

And purple is a combination of red and blue.

What is Betty wearing? A pink (red) sweater over a blue top. Betty is shrouded in lies and deceit.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby marksman » 05 Nov 2010

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby dk23 » 06 Nov 2010

blu-
Watts/Betty as Diane is basically acting out her own version of someone else's story in the final 20 mins.

Notice how Diane's reality was constructed - Betty comes to 'Hollywood' with essentially a clean slate. We don't know anything about her except where she came from and what she wants (and that she has an 'aunt' in the business). She meets and falls for Rita, who conjures up the name Diane and 'guides' her to Sierra Bonita. Betty also catches a glimpse of the Kesher/Rhodes storyline when she sees and bolts from the SNS audition. Out of Betty's experiences and desires the nightmare world of Diane is created, and Betty's wants are used against her. She essentially plays ("for real") her own version of the corpse, (literally) wakening from it to tell her own version of an old story.

All those things that people have been intuiting and trying to fit into Diane's story - sexual abuse, prostitution, drugs, alternative storylines with Adam and Camilla, intricate explanations of the apartment swap and the Wi12, etc etc - nothing is explicitly shown in the film. Watts has nothing to do with any of those things in the limited reality we see in Diane's story.

Yet those things are...."there."

Now, lets take it one step further...

Perhaps Betty & Rita are two pieces of one person (one has a key, the other a box) and the first part of the movie tells the story of them coming together, (re)merging as one, after an 'accident.'

This individual then 'wakes up' into a new reality, resembling the one she perished from, to play out a different version of her old story (with the same result). Her old story was transplanted to the Hollywood world of dreams and we see a different telling of it in the final 20. Thus the protagonist is essentially trapped in a reincarnation cycle where she confronts and competes against her own desires. She wanted to be Adam's leading actress badly, yet conversely as Diane, she cannot come to terms with what she created (Camilla Rhodes). She's a conflicted soul who isn't ready to move on - her old dreams are being kept alive and are presented and used against her naive self (Watts in the film) who is still bursting with wants and desires - and it keeps turning into a nightmare scenario because this individual hasn't figured out the correct way to "get this thing sorted out."

Oh yeah, in the process of all this afterlife/dream stuff we can decipher her backstory, which had nothing to do with the movie biz. In terms of her interaction with CoCo: I think she was interrogated by police and was making up lies ("I just play off, they say they're gonna arrest you, put you in jail, they all say it the same way so when they say it I just react") and it turned out she was quite a good 'actress,' so she was used (put to work) by the police. Anyway, at the dinner party I think we see her talent at conjuring up BS in an 'interrogation.'

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 06 Nov 2010

Interesting thoughts, dk23. Thoughts that led to me to another idea that actually leads this in yet another completely different direction.

What if Diane, in reality, is just like Rita in the dream part. For some unknown reason, she cannot remember who she is. She has to 'fabricate' a history for herself, thus we see all this BS she spews. Camilla, in the second story, felt sympathy for Diane and attempted to help her - much like Betty helped Rita.

A mirror of stories, but each one told differently. The women we see in bed in the middle of the film is the switch-over from one story to the other. Live bodies, one on each side of the corpse. The corpse is the 'center' of the mirrored stories.
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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 06 Nov 2010

Another clue that there are mirrored stories here:

In the first part of the film Betty disappears right before Rita opens the box. When we see Diane standing in front of her kitchen sink and sees Camilla she says "Camilla. You've come back!". Betty is the one who disappeared, but it is Camilla (Rita) who's been gone.

*************
Maybe the corpse is the 'center' of the mirrored stories, but the stories were not supposed to be a mirror. The 'accident' was at Club Silencio. A 'character switch' happened there. Why do I say this? When the first story begins Rita has a key in her handbag. When they go to Club Silencio Betty winds up with a box in her handbag. Also, when they return to the apartment it is Rita who retrieves the handbag with the key and not Betty.

I think that the accident was this: Rita was supposed to receive the box at Club Silencio. But she didn't have a handbag. So the box went into Betty's handbag. This 'switched' the characters (changed the story) and the story was no longer a sort of 'twin' (the same old story told differently) with the second story, but became a mirror of that story.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 06 Nov 2010

Maybe it wasn't the lack of a handbag on Rita's part that caused Betty to mistakenly receive the box. Maybe whoever 'delivered' the box was confused because both Betty and Rita had blonde hair.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby vicster111 » 06 Nov 2010

This idea I just posited gave birth to yet another idea. I will post it in a separate thread.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby blu » 08 Nov 2010

I need to reply to a couple of posts here more thoroughly, but I'm a touch pressed for time at the minute and will come back properly when I have a bit more time to play with.

Interesting discussions tho. :up:

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby blu » 09 Nov 2010

Cowboy wrote:Brit lingo that ... porkies from pork pies = telling lies.

These are the nine things that Diane shares with Coco.

1. I'm from Deep River, Ontario. A small town.

2. I always wanted to come here.

3. I won this jitterbug contest, that sort of led to acting. You know, wanting to act.

4. When my Aunt died ... anyway she left me some money. She worked here. (In the movies?) Yes.

5. (Well, how did you meet Camilla?). On The Sylvia North Story.

6. I wanted the lead so bad. Anyway, Camilla got the part.

7. The director (Bob Brooker?). Yes. He didn't think so much of me.

8. Anyway. That's how we became friends.

9. She helped me. Getting some parts in some of her films.

It probably helps to think from the viewpoint of the director in what information he is sharing here, and why. Diane's untruths are really David's untruths/red herrings, and we could do with trying to climb into his head and working out why he is giving us the information in the manner that he is.

To that end, I see no reason to doubt most of this. Diane meeting Camilla on the set of TSNS, their friendship and Camilla helping Diane out with some parts seems to make sense, and there's no suggestion that Camilla (who is well within earshot) or Adam are challenging the stories that she tells. As mentioned, it's supported by what we are shown generally and is fitting within both 'dream' and 'reality' parts of the film.

Really the only 2 things that sound suspicious is the Aunt Ruth line and the Jitterbug line. Leaving aside Aunt Ruth for a moment, the observation that I have to make about the Jitterbug thing is this: unless I'm having a major brain fade (and please tell me if I am) both the Jitterbug scenes (the dance at the start and then Diane talking about it at the party) were additions by David to the pilot. What I mean to say is that Diane's little speech for the most part explains or references stuff that was already part of the Mulholland Drive story before the shooting of the extra scenes.

So why?

Why did he choose a shaky dance contest winner story as part of Diane's backstory instead of saying that she was involved in some local dramatics or something else at least related to acting as the inspiration for her move to LA? Just to slip in more references to Oz/Le Mepris/whatever else?

I think the jitterbug story is a lie, and even if it's not entirely a lie, there's something that Diane is holding back. It 'sort of' led to acting. Wanting to act ... so she took the first plane to Hollywood? That doesn't smell right to me. There's more than meets the eye to that.

I'm stuck for a definitive explanation of why she lied and what the real story is tho ...

Answers on a postcard. ;-)

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby ctyankee » 09 Nov 2010

blu wrote:Really the only 2 things that sound suspicious is the Aunt Ruth line and the Jitterbug line. Leaving aside Aunt Ruth for a moment, the observation that I have to make about the Jitterbug thing is this: unless I'm having a major brain fade (and please tell me if I am) both the Jitterbug scenes (the dance at the start and then Diane talking about it at the party) were additions by David to the pilot. What I mean to say is that Diane's little speech for the most part explains or references stuff that was already part of the Mulholland Drive story before the shooting of the extra scenes.

So why?


Well ... the whole party scene was added post-pilot, so it's all an add-on. So, is your point that Lynch may have only included the Jitterbug comment because he wanted to tie the added scene in with an added scene? How is that any more "suspicious" than tying an added scene (i.e. dinner party) to a non-added scene? :angel:

blu wrote:Why did he choose a shaky dance contest winner story as part of Diane's backstory instead of saying that she was involved in some local dramatics or something else at least related to acting as the inspiration for her move to LA? Just to slip in more references to Oz/Le Mepris/whatever else?

I think the jitterbug story is a lie, and even if it's not entirely a lie, there's something that Diane is holding back. It 'sort of' led to acting. Wanting to act ... so she took the first plane to Hollywood? That doesn't smell right to me. There's more than meets the eye to that.


A girl leaves Canada for the big city. She's starts as a dancer. It sort of leads to acting when she dates and then marries some actor (23 years older than her) who sees her working in some club. Fact or "shaky" backstory?

Well, for the famous actress Ruby Keeler .... fact. :D

From Wikipedia on Ann Miller (Coco)

At the age of 13 Miller had been hired as a dancer in the "Black Cat Club" in San Francisco (she reportedly told them she was 18).[citation needed] It was there she was discovered by Lucille Ball and talent scout/comic Benny Rubin. This led Miller to be given a contract with RKO in 1936 at the age of 13 (she had also told them she was 18) and she remained there until 1940


Another teenage dancer who became a famous actress with a MD theme ... you guessed it ... Rita Hayworth.

I could make an argument that Diane relating that her winning a dance contest sort of leading to acting is perhaps her at her most honest. Honest yes, but is it complete candor? Perhaps not. But I really don't expect a woman when asked how she got into acting to say "I said 'yes' to the right girl." ;-)

Now, is the dance contest a jitterbug contest because Lynch wants another tie-in to The Wizard of Oz or the like? That seems reasonable. Then again, what exists in MD that Lynch doesn't want to be? What makes this any different?

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby blu » 10 Nov 2010

So, is your point that Lynch may have only included the Jitterbug comment because he wanted to tie the added scene in with an added scene? How is that any more "suspicious" than tying an added scene (i.e. dinner party) to a non-added scene?

That's not quite my point. My point was that if David was using the dinner party conversation as a moment of exposition in general, then the jitterbug comment/story seems awkward, and Diane seems very awkward, and if we weren't supposed to sense this awkwardness, then we would have been told a different story in a different way.

On your second question there, well, it's not really any more suspicious, except in a film so finely balanced between its two parts I would allow the director a little extra flexibility in closing the loop on something that had been mentioned in the shooting of the pilot that he couldn't get away from (and I'm sure he would thank me). Except here he introduced it by choice and closed it in an unsatisfactory way. To me at least.

On the subject of actresses being dancers and that leading to acting ... sure in the 30s, 40s, 50s. I've argued similar arguments on that one and of course the specific actresses you mention are germane to the whole discussion. But this isn't the 30s, 40s or 50s and the story is not being told in that era. Maybe we could make an argument for the dream being some kind of Hollywood Never-never-land with pop culture references from right across the history of the movie business, but is that where Diane's real story resides? I don't think so - that's just one uncomfortable night's sleep, and the real deal is a girl in the late 20th/early 21st century being chewed up. Big time.

Maybe there are a million wannabe actresses in Hollywood who won a dance contest and thought that they'd chance their arm in LA because of it. It's not a common modern story I'm familiar with, and would seem to detract from the 'everywoman' nature of Diane's story as an archetypal one.

If Lynch wants to make Diane's back story a dance contest winner, and because of that sneak in another reference or two, then cool. But if he wants Diane's back story a dance contest winner at all he could have been much more convincing about it. It seems sloppy to me and from my experience he is not a sloppy director.

I guess in a roundabout way, that's my point.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby Cowboy » 10 Nov 2010

blu wrote:On the subject of actresses being dancers and that leading to acting ... sure in the 30s, 40s, 50s. I've argued similar arguments on that one and of course the specific actresses you mention are germane to the whole discussion. But this isn't the 30s, 40s or 50s and the story is not being told in that era. Maybe we could make an argument for the dream being some kind of Hollywood Never-never-land with pop culture references from right across the history of the movie business, but is that where Diane's real story resides? I don't think so - that's just one uncomfortable night's sleep, and the real deal is a girl in the late 20th/early 21st century being chewed up. Big time.


If I can interject into this discussion ...

Chinese actress Zhang Ziyi of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon fame studied dance at the middle and secondary school at the Beijing Dance Academy, winning a dance contest, specifically the 4th Annual National Young Dancer Competition in 1994 so it still happens - admittedly not nearly to the same degree when film musicals were plentiful but I would suggest that is the side issue in that making it in Hollywood as an actress has never changed. It's still about being extremely good looking, being lucky and screwing the right people. That's timeless.

Maybe there are a million wannabe actresses in Hollywood who won a dance contest and thought that they'd chance their arm in LA because of it. It's not a common modern story I'm familiar with, and would seem to detract from the 'everywoman' nature of Diane's story as an archetypal one.


More that there are a million wannabe actresses who are told back in their home towns that they are special, that they should be in the movies they are so darn pretty. And they come to Hollywood to find that the land is filled with pretty women.

If Lynch wants to make Diane's back story a dance contest winner, and because of that sneak in another reference or two, then cool. But if he wants Diane's back story a dance contest winner at all he could have been much more convincing about it. It seems sloppy to me and from my experience he is not a sloppy director.


I think it would have been better if he had Diane say 'I won a dance contest - that sort of led to acting' and he would have gotten the same result without the awkward time gap of a jitterbug contest. But, perhaps the person having the dinner party fantasy is not Diane. If so, it may not be sloppy at all, but a hint from Lynch as to who might have those sort of fantasies. :scratch:
Well, stop for a little second and think about it. Can you do that for me?

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby blu » 10 Nov 2010

Cogent thoughts. I tend to agree with most of it. Especially on the idea of "smalltown" folk encouraging the light of their town to go seek fame and fortune in Hollywood.

On the point of it the story not necessarily being Diane's story (in that someone else may be dreaming/fantasizing the dinner party), one idea I've considered is that Diane is reusing someone else's story. Someone who may come from a time where that type of journey was more commonplace, perhaps. If so, I don't see any evidence in the film by which we can do much other than speculate what Diane's story may be in that sense. We have a feel for the kind of events that may have led her there, but nothing to really hang a hat on.

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Re: Dinner Party Lies? (Split Topic)

Postby marksman » 10 Nov 2010

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