"Okay, so you had a dream about this place. Tell
Winkie's at Sunset
In the Dan and Herb scene, I think it's obvious that Dan is meant to represent Diane. But
Herb most definitely represents Camilla because Camellia is a herb, the scientific name for Tea. So there. Tea contains caffeine which can disrupt
sleep … - (gang)
Why did Herb fail with Dan?
What about Herb? What kind of therapist he could be?
You know, psychotherapy is a huge galaxy, you find huge differences in
practices even into the same theoretical area. In MD we see a therapist who
accepts an encounter with a patient out of a psychotherapeutic setting, such
as a study, a room; so he can't be a psychoanalyst, for example, because
psychoanalysts (and similar) think that they need a delimited place and time
for giving a sense to the words and behaviors; and they can't be friendly,
or sarcastic, or patronizing with their patients, at least in theory; on the contrary there are kinds of
therapeutic practices who encourage such behavior, and encourage the patient
to think that the therapist is a good friend of yours, one that you can call
every time you need, one you can go to a restaurant with, you can play tennis
with, or have an encounter in a Winkie's if you think that there's a
monster behind a wall. So, even if Herb said "you" in a informal way, we
shouldn't be surprised, it's a common practice somewhere.
Which is the
Herb's error with Dan? I think his error was that his behavior confused Dan.
Dan had a serious problem with his monster, because he wasn't sure about the
real existence of the monster; he didn't simply think or feel that the
monster was only in his nightmares, he was asking himself about a real
existence of the monster, even out of his dreams; when you have this kind of
confusion between reality and dreams, it's a serious confusion, and Herb
should be very careful, and shouldn't force Dan to check behind the wall. With his behavior Herb communicated to Dan two contradictory things:
"Dan, I don't take you seriously, I don't believe your monster, I
don't believe about the importance of your monster, it's a stupid idea".
But we know that the monster had a great importance for Dan, and Herb didn't
catch this, Herb devaluated Dan's sentiments, because, in the end, instead
of put the emotions in words, in thoughts, Herb was simply terrorized by them.
don't believe in your monster, but if you believe in him, I put my
thoughts on the same level of yours, I challenge you, let's go to see, I'm
in competition with your thoughts, I think I'm right and you're
wrong". Doing this, Herb accepted that, even only in theory, a
monster COULD exists in the reality and not only in a dream, whereas he
this is because Herb was terrorized, and HE felt the urgency to get rid of the
bad emotions of Dan. If a schizophrenic ask you to put on your head his helmet
to make you hear voices from Mars, you don't do it in order to demonstrate
him that you can't hear anything and say him "you're crazy, I'm not
crazy". So, Herb was terrorized and did end up terrorizing Dan, because he
made feel Dan alone and right at the same time. I think Dan wanted be
reassured by Herb, as if Dan would have said: "Herb, I want be here with
you, you can protect me, just say that he doesn't exist and I'll trust in
you, because I need to believe more in you rather then in me and in the
monster”. Herb shouldn't accept that encounter...
Woman of #12?
The alternate theory of Herb representing DeRosa is quite
possible. Consider these three clues:
The sign in the window behind Herb says, "Senior Special", indicating he is the more mature of the two. When DeRosa comes by to pick up her lamp and dishes,
she is clearly more mature.
After Dan and Herb leaves, Lynch takes a moment to look at the dishes they left behind, which could connect DeRosa picking up her dishes from Diane.
Dan mentions Herb is in both dreams. The
only character who appears unchanged in both the dream and "real world" is DeRosa.
is Herb's motivation/profession?
I'm not entirely convinced that he is a
therapist... However, if he is, we must keep in mind
that his condescending tone is Diane's view of this man. Maybe she felt even he was against her, and that is why
the therapy failed to save her. - (StellaBlue)
I did notice that the check has already
been served before the Winkie's dream discussion has even been started. They've
been there for a while. Herb ate his entire breakfast while Dan didn't eat
anything. My point is that - I'm going to say that indicates that someone has
been busy talking and someone has been busy listening. Btw, Herb, while given
more than an opportunity, does not interrupt the telling of the dream. -
And no - he is not a terrible therapist-asshole. The therapist should be in charge of his patient. Supportive and
attentive, but to not yield to or encourage a patient to every one of his wild
and mad thoughts/impulses/whims, especially if the patient might be very sick.
Herb saw Dan as very troubled so he was quite skeptical, but he was there for
him. - (TristanLove)
In the MD pilot, Lynch did say "friend," but
it did not go into detail how Herb's tone of voice and body expression is,
towards Dan. Would Lynch straight out say therapist in the pilot? It's just a
blueprint/shooting script without the director's personal touch/direction. And
did he change his mind about the nature of their "relationship" for
the final product? I don't know. - (TristanLove)
It is human to smile, to have a twinkle
in your eye when someone takes you down a strange path. He asked questions and
makes statements and does them in a economical fashion. "Why, this Winkie's? "Tell me."
To me the chief thing is not what his occupation is but what their
relationship is. This is not Dan's sexual partner - their body language does
not speak of intimacy. This is a respected friend or someone that he has a
business relationship (perhaps even a co-worker). It is someone that Dan is
slightly embarrassed about talking to about this dream. Dan needed support and
he looked to Herb. A professional therapist works fine. -
I just can't imagine a therapist
who's condescending and borderline sarcastic – especially with a sensitive
person like Dan who's obviously (to Herb) having enough trouble even
bringing himself to share his feelings. - (Dave H.)
I guess what I mean is that we have all been in situations where we just
wanted someone to be interested in what we have to say. Some people dominate
the conversation so much that they lose all perspective of why you were
opening your mouth in the first place.
Herb seems to want whatever is eating Dan to just be solved so that HE can be
comfortable again (not Dan). The motivation is to get this over with and
disprove the fear. I didn't get the feeling he was taking Dan seriously. -
First time I saw this scene, I just
automatically assumed they were lovers, and the "oh boy" patronizing
attitude is what you sometimes get with long-time lovers where one guy thinks
he has heard it all before...especially when one partner starts going on about
his "weird" dream. You people with long-term partners know that
there is a certain amount of eye-rolling that goes on! - (peachfront)
Winkie's has a homosexual connotation.
Everything in this scene would be gender-switched if Dan were Diane and
Herb were Camilla. - (MaryS)
Well, I've already said this a million
times, but to me Herb is a detective and Dan is a psychic helping with an
investigation. - (woodlouse)
that the Winkie's scene begins with the sound of a siren outside of the
diner. I always thought Herb was just another
one of Diane's subconscious 'versions' of the two detectives who came
out looking for her. She, after all, doesn't know what they look like and
yet formed Detective McKnight, Detective Domgaard and those couple detectives in
the car. Naturally, I assumed Herb was one of 'them detectives' figments
of Diane's imagination-enclosed-in-a-dream. -
Michael Cooke on his character in the movie
"Now this is what I was
told - but not by David directly, but by others on set: Herb and Dan were
associates in an agency. From what I "was told" we were Literary
and/or Acting agents in a large agency. But as this was originally meant to
be a television show (ala "Twin Peaks") these revelations (if they
ever were to be revealed anyway, as per the genius of Mr. Lynch) may or may
not have ever been disclosed. This is what I played off of."